Columbus Day

[Tee Kay]

That said, the milestone, however forgotten, IS about the discovery of America, not his personal life.

I don't see how you can really divorce the act of discovery by Columbus and what Columbus did with his discoveries afterwards, but whatever.

I like to take this opportunity to acknowledge Miles Teg's and Valka's excellent posts on this subject. Those insecure people who think they are telling you to "live in shame" or whatever should read their posts again.

I've been quite clear about the fact that I don't think I or anyone else alive can be blamed for the horrors associated with the colonization of the western hemisphere. History is often tragic, but it's history.

Indeed.

 

[Patroklos]

Well he was one major actor in the total obliteration of the tainos at the Hispaniola. And the did not worse things becuase he was not given the chance.

His actions were near irrelevant. The microscopic baddies that came with him did 99% of the dirty work.

 

[kochman]

Alright, so since it's been established that Columbus himself was an indefensible dick, we're celebrating the "Spirit of Columbus".

Now what about that is worth celebrating? I mean, the entire Spanish colonial enterprise was founded around getting rich by steal from less advanced people, which hardly seems worthy of celebration. Presumably we're not celebrating the fact that Columbus was such an idiot that he thought the globe was a third of it's actual size, and then didn't die because he accidentally ran into a continent.

Frankly, the whole idea that every important milestone or achievement by our ancestors must have been a good thing is stupid. Once again, I'm not a self-hating Westerner, and I don't think the European colonization was an evil that the Chinese/Muslims/Aztecs wouldn't have duplicated if they had the chance. I just think that it's not worth celebrating.

Seriously... is this really something worth fighting over?
It's a day off... for an incredibly event that changed the world's course forever.
Why get so up at arms over the other deeds of the explorer who did this?

I haven't actually said anything about Columbus Day because it's not something I care about. But, unless you have a relativist view of morality and seek to absolve individuals of responsibility for their actions as long as they were acting within the bounds of what was still considered acceptable at that time (even this seems to be a matter of some dispute), then you have to agree that Columbus was a pretty bad guy, no matter his contributions. I'd say the same of people like Stalin.

Stalin's impact was nowhere near a net gain for the world... He killed over 30 million people, purposely... Hard to even that out, with umpteen million good works...
Deaths directly attributed to purposeful actions of Columbus (meaning, germs were not his fault, intended, or even realized)? And the good that came out of his works?

 

[JollyRoger]

And the good that came out of his works?

The largest flow of illegal immigration in world history?

 

[aelf]

Stalin's impact was nowhere near a net gain for the world... He killed over 30 million people, purposely... Hard to even that out, with umpteen million good works...
Deaths directly attributed to purposeful actions of Columbus (meaning, germs were not his fault, intended, or even realized)? And the good that came out of his works?

Since we're on the topic of dubious contributions, how's WW2 going to look like without the relatively rapid Soviet industrialisation that happened under Stalin's rule? Just how much equipment and tanks could you ship over to the USSR that would have been enough to fight against the Germans?

Also, I wasn't comparing Columbus to Stalin. I just mentioned Stalin as an example of one those people who was essentially a bad person but who contributed immensely to the shaping of the modern world.

 

[kochman]

The largest flow of illegal immigration in world history?

There was nothing illegal about it! What official law was violated?

Since we're on the topic of dubious contributions, how's WW2 going to look like without the relatively rapid Soviet industrialisation that happened under Stalin's rule? Just how much equipment and tanks could you ship over to the USSR that would have been enough to fight against the Germans?

Also, I wasn't comparing Columbus to Stalin. I just mentioned Stalin as an example of one those people who was essentially a bad person but who contributed immensely to the shaping of the modern world.

I hear you... but there are levels of bad...
I mean, Stalin is worse than Hitler, in my opinion (perhaps only because he had a longer run within which to be had)... But both are quite evil.

Columbus, doesn't come close to those too!

 

[Miles Teg]

Seriously... is this really something worth fighting over?
It's a day off... for an incredibly event that changed the world's course forever.
Why get so up at arms over the other deeds of the explorer who did this?

It's okay Koch, you're just going through the five stages of realizing that Columbus Day shouldn't be a holiday.

First there's Denial ("Columbus wasn't a bad guy!")
Then there's Anger ("You just hate Western culture!")
You're currently on Bargaining ("Maybe Columbus was bad, but can we have the holiday anyways?")
Then there's Grief ("Oh my gosh, are all of my historical heroes horrible people?.")
Then there's acceptance. ("Columbus was a dick, he doesn't deserve a holiday.")

 

[Cutlass]

There was nothing illegal about it! What official law was violated?

So none of those Indians being raped, killed, and enslaved had laws?

 

[kochman]

So none of those Indians being raped, killed, and enslaved had laws?

He said illegal immigration, buddy.

What laws had been codified for that matter?

 

[NovaKart]

It was a joke.

 

[GhostWriter16]

There was nothing illegal about it! What official law was violated?

While simply coming to America wasn't "Illegal" taking the Indians' land certainly was.

But, what's done is done.

 

[Linkman226]

That day was Thanksgiving for me. Any excuse to get stuffed with yummy food, amirite?

Well, Thanksgiving is a lie. But that's a matter for a different thread

 

[timtofly]

@ Valka

So your opinion was, "the moon"? Thanks.

Columbus was on a business venture that went wrong, and to rectifiy the situation he did horrible things. Had nothing to do with the natives, just what was done to them.


@ Miles

Not the spirit of Columbus; the spirit of exploration!

Columbus did not even make it to the continent until his 3rd voyage, so he only proved that the earth did not end until after huge islands held up the other side of the Atlantic.

 

[Thorgalaeg]

His actions were near irrelevant. The microscopic baddies that came with him did 99% of the dirty work.

Columbus tried to organize a trans-atlantic slaving route to send indians slaves to Spain. Infact in his second voyage Columbus returned to Spain with over 300 slaves. However in 1495 Isabella declared indian enslaving illegal and ordered to send all the indians back to America. Sadly the encomenderos found new ways for indian exploitation.

Also, there are many testimonies about Columbus atrocities along the years he was governor at Hispaniola, in fact a mountain of documents about this matter were found recently at the huge historical archives of Valladolid (Spanish bureaucracy has always been very meticulous). Today there are few doubts about Columbus being a not very recomendable character even among his supporters.

He was a megalomaniac with limitless ambition and a very egothistical personality reaching stupidity levels sometimes. For instance, returning from his first voyage he reached Lisboa first instead of any port at Spain. Historically has been said this was simply an accident due to a storm which divided his two-ship fleet, however according to last researchs it seems that he docked at lisboa intentionally to meet the king of Portugal in order to say him: "look what i have found, it all could be yours now but you rejected my project". John II even considered to kill Columbus to avoid him reaching Spain, but news of the other ship docking succefully at Bayona (Spain) changed his mind.

 

[Valka D'Ur]

@ Valka

So your opinion was, "the moon"? Thanks.

Columbus was on a business venture that went wrong, and to rectifiy the situation he did horrible things. Had nothing to do with the natives, just what was done to them.

My "opinion" was that your question was off-topic. But I'll give you a serious answer anyway. My classes did not go into the specifics of the Inuit religion. I guess I'll have to write somebody in the Nunavut territorial government to ask, as I'm sure they'd have someone quite happy to enlighten a "southerner" (as people in the Territories think of Canadians who live in the provinces). As for your reference to Inca religion, I am equally in the dark. None of my courses covered South American native history or anthropology. In fact, based on what I've read in this thread, I think I should do some extra reading on that subject.

@ Miles

Not the spirit of Columbus; the spirit of exploration!

Columbus did not even make it to the continent until his 3rd voyage, so he only proved that the earth did not end until after huge islands held up the other side of the Atlantic.

Columbus wasn't concerned with the world "ending" - he was well aware that the world is round. He was just confused about how large Earth really is. If he hadn't run into an island near North America - and if the Americas had not been there - he would have sailed on until he and his crew died of starvation/dehydration.

@taillesskangaru: Thank you. While I do enjoy celebrating Canada Day, I still acknowledge that Canada has shameful acts in our history, some of which are still unresolved. And I certainly don't venerate our first Prime Minister, Sir John A. Macdonald, as he committed a truly reprehensible deed (ordering the execution of Louis Riel). But neither do I feel personal guilt at his acts or those of past governments who kidnapped First Nations children and forced them into residential schools, or who forced Japanese Canadians into internment camps during World War II (and so on). I personally did not do those things. But I acknowledge them as a dark blot on Canada's history and international reputation.

 

[Cutlass]

He said illegal immigration, buddy.

What laws had been codified for that matter?

Wherever they could, the local tribes tried to prevent the whites from settling. Whites did it at the barrel of a gun anyways.

 

[warpus]

Columbus did not even make it to the continent until his 3rd voyage, so he only proved that the earth did not end until after huge islands held up the other side of the Atlantic.

He didn't prove anything, aside from the fact that there was land in between Europe and China, going westwards. Everyone already knew that the earth was round.

 

[jtb1127]

Yeah, any educated Greek new the Earth was round over a thousand years earlier. Only kindergartners think he proved the earth was round.

 

[GhostWriter16]

Well, Magellan PROVED it, though it wasn't a matter that was really in dispute at that point, it would be like proving gravity.

 

[jtb1127]

Actually Magellan was dead