Columbus Day

[Valka D'Ur]

What Miles said. The indians who the Europeans met when they arrived were not the "original indians". Rather, they were from tribes who had kicked the previous inhabitants out (or exterminated them).

Talking about "the indians" as some sort of unified group is silly. There were many "nations", and many tribes, and they fought each other constantly and took land and slaves from one another.

Read what I wrote about southeastern Brazil. When the Portuguese arrived here, virtually all indians belonged to some subgroup of the Tupi nation, which is of Amazonian origin. They came to dominate the Southeast by fighting and wiping out the natives (who probably wiped out other natives, and so on for thousands of years).

The indians were as warlike as Europeans, Asians and Africans. Shocking, no?

You have obviously missed reading the posts where Miles Teg and I came to an understanding about what I meant.

Don't presume to lecture me on Native American history that I learned in college nearly 30 years ago, 'k? I am perfectly aware that there were many different nations, many bands, tribes, chiefdoms, city-states, etc. They had wide-ranging trade routes, fought wars, made peace and alliances, and some of them had literacy and were therefore able to record their history. Unfortunately, it was the Europeans who decided to destroy much of those records without even bothering to try to understand it. As a result, our historical and archaeological knowledge of these people is much poorer than it ought to have been.

In your opinion, why do the Inuit face east (in worship) and the Inca faced west (in worship)?

And that has what, exactly, to do with the price of marshmallows on the Moon?

On Columbus, I do not think his purpose was to "enslave" anyone. What happened was he did stumble across an unknown culture who did not have the riches of the orient he was searching for, and the inevitable did happen. This less advanced culture succumbed to the social policies of a more advanced tribe, and were a society who did find themselves trying to "play" catch up.

So the fact that Columbus enslaved the natives was the natives' own fault because they wanted more Stuff?

Maybe you're missing something. I said that invasions, slave taking, and the destruction of indigenous cultures are all bad. They're bad when Europeans do it and when Indians do it and when Middle Easterners do it. They're bad in 1492 and 1942 and 2011.

If I say that I don't like celebrating bullies, the proper response is not "well we should we celebrate the biggest, baddest bully on the playground."

Excellent post.

Maybe you're missing something.
Without this having happened... the world would be nowhere near as advanced, and you wouldn't be typing your post on the "internets"...

Get it?

Several of us have already said that if it wasn't Columbus, it would have been another European explorer... there were quite a few of them sailing around in those days.

 

[JollyRoger]

I don't know what Columbus actually did in his life,

Perhaps instead of closing the school for a day, they can teach some history on that day instead.

 

[GhostWriter16]

Perhaps instead of closing the school for a day, they can teach some history on that day instead.

I'm an AP history student ATM and have the highest grade in my class. Nobody on here should be lecturing me on not knowing history*

I may not have learned everything there is to know about history, but I do know an awful lot. Columbus' life is a pretty unimportant historical point IMO.

*Dachs being the execption, Dachs is free to help me out anytime

 

[JollyRoger]

I'm an AP history student ATM and have the highest grade in my class. Nobody on here should be lecturing me on not knowing history*

I may not have learned everything there is to know about history, but I do know an awful lot. Columbus' life is a pretty unimportant historical point IMO.

*Dachs being the execption, Dachs is free to help me out anytime

So if even our smartest history students do not know much about Columbus, then my call for an extra day of history rather than a day off seems to be reinforced.

 

[Azash]

Don't presume to lecture me on Native American history that I learned in college nearly 30 years ago, 'k?

I don't know if rarely-needed information picked up at a handful of college courses means much, let alone 30 years later

 

[Miles Teg]

You guys are missing the point. No one is saying, he's a terrible guy, that's why we are celebrating him...
I'm done explaining it to you... Go on hating Columbus and everything his day stands for... it's a waste of breath, but it is your breath in the end.

As an individual, he does not deserve it. In the spirit of exploration, he may. For one to be "mainly" remembered as achieving something to be celebrated instead of his wicked deeds.... it must be a catholic thing?

Also, Columbus Day, IMO, more celebrates Columbus' discovery than the man himself.

Alright, so since it's been established that Columbus himself was an indefensible dick, we're celebrating the "Spirit of Columbus".

Now what about that is worth celebrating? I mean, the entire Spanish colonial enterprise was founded around getting rich by steal from less advanced people, which hardly seems worthy of celebration. Presumably we're not celebrating the fact that Columbus was such an idiot that he thought the globe was a third of it's actual size, and then didn't die because he accidentally ran into a continent.

Frankly, the whole idea that every important milestone or achievement by our ancestors must have been a good thing is stupid. Once again, I'm not a self-hating Westerner, and I don't think the European colonization was an evil that the Chinese/Muslims/Aztecs wouldn't have duplicated if they had the chance. I just think that it's not worth celebrating.

 

[Azash]

Alright, so since it's been established that Columbus himself was an indefensible dick, we're celebrating the "Spirit of Columbus".

Now what about that is worth celebrating? I mean, the entire Spanish colonial enterprise was founded around getting rich by steal from less advanced people, which hardly seems worthy of celebration. Presumably we're not celebrating the fact that Columbus was such an idiot that he thought the globe was a third of it's actual size, and then didn't die because he accidentally ran into a continent.

Frankly, the whole idea that every important milestone or achievement by our ancestors must have been a good thing is stupid. Once again, I'm not a self-hating Westerner, and I don't think the European colonization was an evil that the Chinese/Muslims/Aztecs wouldn't have duplicated if they had the chance. I just think that it's not worth celebrating.

You should celebrate the vikings for discovering the Americas as first Europeans.

 

[GhostWriter16]

So if even our smartest history students do not know much about Columbus, then my call for an extra day of history rather than a day off seems to be reinforced.

Not necessarily. Most people don't know astrophysics, nor do they need too. The question worth asking is if these details about Columbus are important, and if they are, how to fit them into the schedule.

Alright, so since it's been established that Columbus himself was an indefensible dick, we're celebrating the "Spirit of Columbus".

Now what about that is worth celebrating? I mean, the entire Spanish colonial enterprise was founded around getting rich by steal from less advanced people, which hardly seems worthy of celebration. Presumably we're not celebrating the fact that Columbus was such an idiot that he thought the globe was a third of it's actual size, and then didn't die because he accidentally ran into a continent.

Frankly, the whole idea that every important milestone or achievement by our ancestors must have been a good thing is stupid. Once again, I'm not a self-hating Westerner, and I don't think the European colonization was an evil that the Chinese/Muslims/Aztecs wouldn't have duplicated if they had the chance. I just think that it's not worth celebrating.

I think anything that gives me a day off is good. As that's 90% of my argument, I'm not going to continue debating.

 

[JollyRoger]

how to fit them into the schedule.

Hold school on Columbus day. Either he is important enough to study for a day or not important enough to have a day named after him, in which case, there is no holiday to get out of school.

 

[luiz]

You have obviously missed reading the posts where Miles Teg and I came to an understanding about what I meant.

Don't presume to lecture me on Native American history that I learned in college nearly 30 years ago, 'k? I am perfectly aware that there were many different nations, many bands, tribes, chiefdoms, city-states, etc. They had wide-ranging trade routes, fought wars, made peace and alliances, and some of them had literacy and were therefore able to record their history. Unfortunately, it was the Europeans who decided to destroy much of those records without even bothering to try to understand it. As a result, our historical and archaeological knowledge of these people is much poorer than it ought to have been.

You wrote absolutely silly things and I corrected you. I don't know and I don't care what you learned 30 years ago.

The Indians were as violent and brutal as any other human group in their stage of evolution. They killed, stole and enslaved. In some places they had human sacrifices.

The story of the Conquest is not one of greedy europeans destroying noble savages. It is one of a people on the early stages of the Modern Age in contact with peoples at various stages of the stone age.

If we want to be all PC and stop celebrating our European legacy because of the bad things europeans did in the Conquest, coherence dictates that we stop celebrating our indian legacy as well, as they too killed and enslaved.

 

[GhostWriter16]

Hold school on Columbus day. Either he is important enough to study for a day or not important enough to have a day named after him, in which case, there is no holiday to get out of school.

Rename it "Discovering America Day" and get off my lawn off my day off

 

[JollyRoger]

Rename it "Discovering America Day" and get off my lawn off my day off

So the lesson from Discovering America Day is that we discover that Americans are lazy enough to want a weekday in October off?

 

[Miles Teg]

Rename it "Discovering America Day" and get off my lawn off my day off

But how are we going to assign a date to when humans first cross the Bering land bridge?

 

[GhostWriter16]

So the lesson from Discovering America Day is that we discover that Americans are lazy enough to want a weekday in October off?

Yes

But how are we going to assign a date to when humans first cross the Bering land bridge?

Just keep it the same day, when Europeans discovered it (The commonly accepted day.) The apparent problem here isn't the date, but the focus on Columbus.)

 

[Valka D'Ur]

I don't know if rarely-needed information picked up at a handful of college courses means much, let alone 30 years later

I majored in anthropology and history, so it's more than a "handful". I've kept up with my reading in the years since.

You should celebrate the vikings for discovering the Americas as first Europeans.

We have done that here in Canada - not with a national holiday, but we have celebrated it.

You wrote absolutely silly things and I corrected you. I don't know and I don't care what you learned 30 years ago.

The Indians were as violent and brutal as any other human group in their stage of evolution. They killed, stole and enslaved. In some places they had human sacrifices.

The story of the Conquest is not one of greedy europeans destroying noble savages. It is one of a people on the early stages of the Modern Age in contact with peoples at various stages of the stone age.

If we want to be all PC and stop celebrating our European legacy because of the bad things europeans did in the Conquest, coherence dictates that we stop celebrating our indian legacy as well, as they too killed and enslaved.

Why do you persist in ignoring what I posted when much of it is in agreement with you? And there's no need to be insulting - if I post silly things, I acknowledge them myself as silly, as my "silly" posts are meant to be joking.

I'm not joking in this thread.

But how are we going to assign a date to when humans first cross the Bering land bridge?

Just keep it the same day, when Europeans discovered it (The commonly accepted day.) The apparent problem here isn't the date, but the focus on Columbus.)

That's something the paleontologists haven't determined yet. It was near the end of the last Ice Age, but that's still many thousands of years ago, and as for what time of year, that's anybody's guess.

 

[Cheezy the Wiz]

I'm an AP history student ATM and have the highest grade in my class. Nobody on here should be lecturing me on not knowing history*

Some of us have dedicated many years of our lives to mastery of the subject. It's rather insulting to be told that a high school student with one class on the subject isn't deserving of reprimand when he's wrong.

 

[GhostWriter16]

Some of us have dedicated many years of our lives to mastery of the subject. It's rather insulting to be told that a high school student with one class on the subject isn't deserving of reprimand when he's wrong.

Not that I'm "Wrong" which I'm happy to hear. Its the implication that I'm freakin' stupid for not knowing that JR gave that I was addressing.

 

[JollyRoger]

Not that I'm "Wrong" which I'm happy to hear. Its the implication that I'm freakin' stupid for not knowing that JR gave that I was addressing.

I don't think you are freakin' stupid for not knowing that.

 

[phoenix_sprite]

That day was Thanksgiving for me. Any excuse to get stuffed with yummy food, amirite?

 

[aelf]

You guys are missing the point. No one is saying, he's a terrible guy, that's why we are celebrating him...
I'm done explaining it to you... Go on hating Columbus and everything his day stands for... it's a waste of breath, but it is your breath in the end.

I haven't actually said anything about Columbus Day because it's not something I care about. But, unless you have a relativist view of morality and seek to absolve individuals of responsibility for their actions as long as they were acting within the bounds of what was still considered acceptable at that time (even this seems to be a matter of some dispute), then you have to agree that Columbus was a pretty bad guy, no matter his contributions. I'd say the same of people like Stalin.