Communism, Marxism, Socialism, Capitalism, What are your thoughts?

Problem areas, as in how will socialists answer the questions that surround each of these?:

[With your epic retorts.] [Of course, one must always keep in mind Marx's comment about not creating 'cookshops of the future' when reading this.]

Wealth inequality (accumulation of assets, past and future)

The expropriation of the expropriators, who have become such by dint of essential theft (i.e, primitive accumulation in the early stages of capitalism, and imperialism now). This would require a necessary flow of 'wealth' not just within a "country" like the U.S, but also, internationally.

No inheritances, no rents. Ok, what happens to the 19th c painting my mother has that has been appraised at $25,000? what happens to her $500,000 life insurance policy when she dies?

The painting, being your own, personal property, would become yours, and it would be worth nothing more than the sentimentality that you hold towards it. Life insurance wouldn't exist under a socialist society; you are already insured in the form of social and public programs that serve the working classes.

Private property

End of it. Full stop.

None. Who gets to live on the upper west side and who lives on Staten island? Who decides?

Ideally, under socialism, the differences at least in what we create (for we cannot control fully nature, nor create a completely equal society), between Upper West Side and Staten Island, would be minimized to the best efforts.


Fixed, then later on, rendered unnecessary. They are a good tool in the early stages of transition, but will hold no use later on.

So when the black market develops what happens?

Depending on when it happens, it should be 'legalized' in a way - this is something Cuba has done, for an example, as a way of not having to do it in secret - and later on, it won't exist at all, for the distribution of goods would render it unneeded.


Guaranteed. I think you ought to do some publically necessary labour - community service - of some notable respect. The goal is twofold: one, build up the necessary connection between different members of the community, and secondly, instill skills into every worker that would be useful in her life. I personally dislike how a lot of work has been off-loaded to various hard-working people - garbage pickup, maids, etc - that must be rendered invisible, to keep up the illusion of everything working perfectly fine, like magic. And further still, those same people are denigrated for being lazy, low-class & so forth, when you would be lying in trash without them! Just an example, of course.

Who decides the job I get? Can I quit and get another anytime? Do I have to work?

The local city/community authorities will presumably decide upon where and why labour is needed - it would be, in a way, a volunteer service, except you would get renumerated in some sense. Following that, yes, you can quit and get another one (unless it's really important), after all, it's guaranteed employment.

Unless you're disabled, physically or mentally, need to raise children, yes, you probably will have to work. Good news is, you'd probably be working less hours than today.

Income inequality

Lowered, in the lower phase of communism ['socialism'], to the inequality of the ability of different workers to do a different amount of work, for a different amount of pay. Nonexistent under communism.

Economic growth

Unnecessary past the ability of labour to redistribute all the fruits of the 'economic growth' to sustain basic subsistence for everyone, and I really mean everyone, and later on, to make sure that, [if you'd like a poetic flourish] to truly blossom in all of his skills and attributes. There, my friend, you will find the Mozarts, Bachs, Einsteins and Edinsons amongst the workers.

Incentives and motivation

What does this mean? You can see people, even today, create beautiful, amazing things for basically free [look into the mod subforums for the various Civ games - you're probably not going to find many Patreon/venmo links!]. Can you imagine what would happen if we didn't live under the threat of our bosses cutting off our subsistence if we're not good peons? You seem to think that people would become lazy - at least I read it that way - without the need to sell their wages, or whatever. I do not think that I agree. Humans have a 'natural' urge to use their labour to shape the world around them - it's what separates us from other animals for the most part - and you can see that you've had amazing talents come out of the USSR and China.

That is only true for about 50% of Americans. In addition people have short memories.

Is it really 50% of Americans that slave for capitalists? I find this incredibly hard to believe. Furthermore, as memories go, that's where the hegemonic role of a communistic education would come in place, reinforcing the need to stay on the current path and to never stray away back to capitalism. You may say this is 'coercive', but it is as much as it is that capitalist education teaches us that feudalism was bad and what came after it was inherently superior, as it enabled free trade and private property.


Reallocation of wealth and means of production to create the necessary goods for the people. Of course, it's not a mere question of distribution - the current society, has to be broken up into pieces.

Education

Free of charge and generally freed of its current school-to-employment pipeline, here in the sense that what a child wishes to work in her life should be her pwn desire, not one hoisted upon her. Therefore, the curriculum may as well be more opened up, individualized in some sense, even. There would be a basic framework around the communistic values, how to behave with fellow workers and their different backgrounds, etc; but it must be opened up; not a single assembly line for every student, but a broad, humanistic, if you will, way of educating children, while still respecting their agency (which would also mean that the teacher would have to be more of a guide and less of the cop-entertainer-social worker combo they are now).

Free is only half the equation. It also has to be better than we have now and focused on the future.

Obviously. It will be better, once it is freed from the bourgeoisie that shape its foundations, that steal funding from it, that turn it into a tool of indoctrination and docility.

Controlling the future

As it has been mentioned: planning, according for the needs of the people. It will be necessary for the mitigation of the great damages capitalism will leave inevitably in its wake. When Engels spoke about the 'anarchy of the marketplace' in the 1870s and 1880s, he was, of course, speaking of the great economic crises that rocked the world at that time. Today, the same anarchy isn't merely threatening the livelihood of millions of people, immiserating them, killing them, etc etc, but it is on a death march to end the planet as we know it. Therefore, it is a planetary crisis that we live in today. And you know who caused this? Lack of any foresight and planning! [Admittedly, a lot of logistics - Amazon and Walmart - already do exist and use a certain degree of planning (it really is impossible not to, considering the complexity of the supply chains involved.] There is no plan, beyond self-annihilating impetus for growth. You laugh, my friend, but the joke is on all of the believers in the great death cult of capitalism, which today tells us to just live with the coronavirus. I do not think this is a reasonable, sane, efficient or humane way of doing things, so planning it'll be. Beyond that, computer power allows us to do planning at a scale that the Soviets could've never imagined.

PS: In the end, there's so many authors available on marxists.org, who can offer answers - or, at the very least, the beginnings of answers - to all of these questions that you laid out. You're a big man, you can read through some silly Marxists, yes?

I'm sure they would be very happy citizens.

Hmmm...so that fact that we lost some great talents (never developed) because of the rise of
capitalism means that we should not allow any such people any more. What a great plan. Was Mozart a better composer because he had to compete? Was Bach?

Eventually, they'll find humility in the act of serving society. But, Crezth pointed out that risk-assessment is something that insurers do, and I suppose that's something I haven't considered.

Did you read what I wrote? Was I saying that at all? No! I was saying that the unjust systems that we've lived so far in are already a constraint on talent! Communism isn't a project of vindicating those past dead - it is a work in progress for the liberation of the present and future generations.
 
If you go to Moscow, you'll notice that many hospitals, universities, museums, embassies, government buildings, etc., are located in former mansions and palaces of Russian nobility.
Finding a good use to a fancy home is not really a problem.
That certainly works in Moscow and Leningrad but how would it work in the Hollywood Hills or Belair or Hilton Head SC and Aspen CO?
 
@Tolina and @Crezth Thanks for your replies. I have a much better grasp on how you see things. I may pick some of the subtopics to ask about later.
 
The spread of Injustice between a mansion and an apartment is many zeros less than the spread within financial assets.

Once a few zeros have been knocked off of relative wealth differences, we might find that the difference between housing units is not all that significant. And that it would be much more efficient to build up than to tear down
 
The same way it worked in Moscow and Leningrad?
Not likely. There aren't any needs for such state owned buildings in those places. They are just neighborhoods where wealthy people have very large, fancy houses.
 
If it's not universal then it's not a UBI. The universality of such a program is the whole point. Most Western countries already have social welfare programs to varying degrees, but a UBI shifts the framework to fundamentally treating people as human beings with inherent right to basic needs, rather than having to prove their worthiness for the state's largesse.

But yes, if we're talking about dollars, we already do pay a non-insignificant portion of the population for existing. We subject many of those people to pretty dehumanising treatment, but we pay out nonetheless.

For me even a low UBI is better than none at all, because you establish the principle of the inherent worth of human beings, regardless of ability or any other criteria. It's the logical next step for the modern concept of universal human rights that rose out of the ashes of the Second World War. We have things like freedom of speech and freedom of assembly*; with UBI those rights will be backed with actual material value.

*not always respected of course, but the principles are well-established

UBI is in place in the Netherlands since 1965

For people thinking that this make things simple the answer is no.
There are many people with handicaps that still need allowances on top. If you have for example polio you need another kind of housing and devices to move. etc, etc. The same with mental handicaps. Most of these can be covered by the mantra of national health care, but that is only shifting the needed civil servant activities and money flows to another umbrella.
And then you have on top faciliating that handicapped people can exercise their right to work. This means that you have to faciliate social workplaces that cost more than you can allocate to the cost of products made there, to still have a competitive price for those products (incl a lot of bargaining with trade unions).

UBI has also the risk that it is only used by rightwing to be able to say to "the people": "you've got what you wanted... we've got a social safety net in place... snore on in complacency"


My feel is that UBI is common sense... and that there are ideological reasons for not having it in a country.

The other side of the coin of that statement is that getting it or having it is not necessarily a socialist achievement.
 
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The other side of the coin of that statement is that getting it or having it is not necessarily a socialist achievement.
Providing for the poor etc. is not socialism, it is common sense and kindness.
 
The thing on UBI I’d be concerned about would be actively encouraging unemployment by people who are able to work. I’ve pretty much seen it in the newspapers where people have quit their low paying jobs just to hop onto unemployment benefits because it pays more than their low paying job. Granted unemployment benefits are supposed to be temporary in nature. I feel that UBI should largely cover expenses you make when purchasing food and transportation to and from work, as a form of supplementary income not a substitute for income from work.

Then comes the other factor of also implementing a UBI to take into account of cost of living in an area. For instance, when comparing the CoL of Tennessee with the CoL of Massachusetts, it’s much expensive to live in Massachusetts because the state (especially if you’re within the Greater Boston Area) is much hire than that then living in Tennessee.
 
The thing on UBI I’d be concerned about would be actively encouraging unemployment by people who are able to work. I’ve pretty much seen it in the newspapers where people have quit their low paying jobs just to hop onto unemployment benefits because it pays more than their low paying job. Granted unemployment benefits are supposed to be temporary in nature. I feel that UBI should largely cover expenses you make when purchasing food and transportation to and from work, as a form of supplementary income not a substitute for income from work.

Then comes the other factor of also implementing a UBI to take into account of cost of living in an area. For instance, when comparing the CoL of Tennessee with the CoL of Massachusetts, it’s much expensive to live in Massachusetts because the state (especially if you’re within the Greater Boston Area) is much hire than that then living in Tennessee.

Yes
regional effects do play a big role in amount of money needed for the same level of living.

In the Netherlands much of this difference is coming from the rent of housing. And therefore much is compensated by rent allowances on top of the UBI. This rent allowance can be max 30% of your UBI on top of your UBI.

Nothing is simple when you have to get down to the practical implementation that can be sustainably governed.
Rhetorics is easy.


EDIT
To control the level of UBI and allowances we have in the Netherlands the CPB, the Cental Planning Agency.
When it is election campaign time, and our many political parties write trheir election manifesto.... all those manifestos are submitted to the CPB who does the math as if they are operation plans, budgets for the coming 4 years. The resulting report shows all the economical effects in a quantitative way (estimates ofc) incl for all typical personas the effect on their wallets. Persona's like a UBI person, living apart or together... like Jan Modaal (a kind of median income like a nurse)... like pensioneers and then other income groups splitted up by household size etc, etc.

Rhetorics is brought back to practical consequences and reported back to "the people" to inform them properly.
This helps to keep for example UBI etc in good order.
 
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The thing on UBI I’d be concerned about would be actively encouraging unemployment by people who are able to work. I’ve pretty much seen it in the newspapers where people have quit their low paying jobs just to hop onto unemployment benefits because it pays more than their low paying job. Granted unemployment benefits are supposed to be temporary in nature. I feel that UBI should largely cover expenses you make when purchasing food and transportation to and from work, as a form of supplementary income not a substitute for income from work.

Then comes the other factor of also implementing a UBI to take into account of cost of living in an area. For instance, when comparing the CoL of Tennessee with the CoL of Massachusetts, it’s much expensive to live in Massachusetts because the state (especially if you’re within the Greater Boston Area) is much hire than that then living in Tennessee.

Frankly considering the increasing automation of labor tasks I'd consider those want to just be on UBI as a net positive on negotiating wages for those who still wish to work. I like work. I find meaning in my work. I like playing guitar and I find meaning in that too. I like bombing Germans with Ghandi nukes on video games though I don't think I find much meaning in that. . .anyway all these things in balance makes me happy. If someone doesn't want to work at all? I'm okay supporting them minimally anyways.

Scarcity of shelter and food seem like totally artificial constructs of capitalism in the west at this point and thus I am for socialist policies but I am not a socialist. I believe in private property to some extent and so on.
 
And yes it does sound like he sees the State as the entity which would try to balance out many of societies inequities. I dd not find anything that spoke how the state would do, just that it would. Such ideas are fine with me, but I do wonder and do like to ask when such ideas get promoted how they would be carried out and what the new society would like.
LaSalle didn't create specific policy prescriptions, but neither did Adam Smith. Wealth of Nations contained ideas and theory, not instructions on how to structure the tax system to encourage limited liability corporations and prevent accumulation of monopolistic wealth, or policy prescriptions on how to prevent regulatory capture.

This seems to be a recurring Thing, posters going "Oh, that sounds nice, but why don't you tell me exactly how you will accomplish it". If you tried explaining free market capitalism to Bob the Peasant in 1670 France, he would look at you like you were insane.
 
Yes
regional effects do play a big role in amount of money needed for the same level of living.

In the Netherlands much of this difference is coming from the rent of housing. And therefore much is compensated by rent allowances on top of the UBI. This rent allowance can be max 30% of your UBI on top of your UBI.

Nothing is simple when you have to get down to the practical implementation that can be sustainably governed.
Rhetorics is easy.


EDIT
To control the level of UBI and allowances we have in the Netherlands the CPB, the Cental Planning Agency.
When it is election campaign time, and our many political parties write trheir election manifesto.... all those manifestos are submitted to the CPB who does the math as if they are operation plans, budgets for the coming 4 years. The resulting report shows all the economical effects in a quantitative way (estimates ofc) incl for all typical personas the effect on their wallets. Persona's like a UBI person, living apart or together... like Jan Modaal (a kind of median income like a nurse)... like pensioneers and then other income groups splitted up by household size etc, etc.

Rhetorics is brought back to practical consequences and reported back to "the people" to inform them properly.
This helps to keep for example UBI etc in good order.
One advantage of a small nation. The implementation scale needs to be small enough to be "local" but fit within a larger broader plan that can take in more geography and people.
 
LaSalle didn't create specific policy prescriptions, but neither did Adam Smith. Wealth of Nations contained ideas and theory, not instructions on how to structure the tax system to encourage limited liability corporations and prevent accumulation of monopolistic wealth, or policy prescriptions on how to prevent regulatory capture.

This seems to be a recurring Thing, posters going "Oh, that sounds nice, but why don't you tell me exactly how you will accomplish it". If you tried explaining free market capitalism to Bob the Peasant in 1670 France, he would look at you like you were insane.
Theory can be interesting, but success depends not on the theory but on how it is actually implemented. Hence my ongoing interest in how things would be done. "Guaranteed jobs" is a great slogan. What is actually important is what that means upon implementation.
 
Theory can be interesting, but success depends not on the theory but on how it is actually implemented. Hence my ongoing interest in how things would be done. "Guaranteed jobs" is a great slogan. What is actually important is what that means upon implementation.
Things are found out through trial-and-error. Your preferred version of free market capitalism didn't spring into existence with a fully formed plan for action in 1776. It took almost two centuries of struggle before it was able to address the negative externalities and abuses in the system in a way generally acceptable to most people.
 
Things are found out through trial-and-error. Your preferred version of free market capitalism didn't spring into existence with a fully formed plan for action in 1776. It took almost two centuries of struggle before it was able to address the negative externalities and abuses in the system in a way generally acceptable to most people.
Exactly. In fact market based economies go way back to ancient times.Economic practices do not spring full grown from the forehead of Zeus. They slowly cook over time and are influenced by by the world around them. They change, usually in ways we cannot predict.
 
Exactly. In fact market based economies go way back to ancient times.Economic practices do not spring full grown from the forehead of Zeus. They slowly cook over time and are influenced by by the world around them. They change, usually in ways we cannot predict.

With "capitalism" is specifically meant "industrialization and how the bourgeoisie own the means of it." In a feudal context, markets consist of guilds, and are tightly ruled by nobles. Industrial society changed that.
 
markets consist of guilds, and are tightly ruled by nobles. Industrial society changed that.

That's not correct for at least the HRE area of Europe.

Nobles were desperate for money as the tax on peasants with land was easily outpaced by the tax potential of industrious activities in towns by guilds.

That tax was only "allowed" by the Burghers of the towns when they got privileges back that step by step increased the independency of the towns and its burghers. Many of those were irreversible as it turned out.

And feudal punishment like they were used to apply to peasants did not work for towns, guilds and burghers (burghers = the people with the right to live in a town)
Simply because Land has little need of capital assets andpeasants can be easily replaced. => There was little knowledge, workers, assets destroyed by destructive punishment. Max damage one year harvest.

For towns this is a completely different story.
Guilds are based on knowledge, and killing Guild burghers is like killing the goose with the golden eggs.
And even ransacking, burning a town as punishment does not work well, because that would destroy the assets of industrious activities, the tools and working stock. Only the gold etc would be of value for the feudal attacker.
The net effect of ransacking a town as punishment would simply be getting for a long period less tax because new tools would be needed first and the knowledge disruption from killing experienced craftmen would also cause a long term tax reduction.

One of the first privileges asked for and handed over by Feudal for some tax were town walls, mostly because feudal had yet another war and needed suddenly a lot of money. The non-war base tax was mostly not high. A reserve so to say for the war taxes that made more capital as long as it was reserve.
And a town with town walls attracted knowledgable guild members and capital assets (tools, stocks) of other less protected towns. The town walls protecting against thiefs, bands of thieves and marauding troops without a war.
The privilege of a market was high on the priority list as well, because this gave more inter-town access to trade, and more exchange of knowledge synergies.
Having a cathedral with relics and perhaps that local miracle a real boost to the economy of a town.
Having city rights, having the right to wield justice on your own town burghers was a further protection of your knowledge (your burghers). And your burghers were entitled to the law of their home town when they committed crime in another city !

=> key is that once these walls were in place feudal punishment got a big hurdle. Big enough even for towns to make ad hoc alliances with other feudal Lords when attacked by their own Lord. Semi-irreversible.
Tightly ruled ?
yes
Every burgher was obliged to comply to an avalanche of town rules and regulations, including duties in time and money to keep up the town wall and defenses.
Burgers not complying were banned from the town. Becoming a burgher in a town had BTW a huge hurdle. If you did not have something to contribute to a town in terms of money, assets or knowledge you did not become a new burgher.

The emancipation of the burghers start early in medieval period but around 1200 and certainly around 1300 the burghers revolt is in full swing in many parts of Europe.
There where these revolts happened earlier in time the GDP per capita skyrockets. Areas with stronger feudal power like centralist France got relatively backward in exactly this period starting in 1200-1300.
There where silly feudal wars were a hazard for rural and too small or undefendable villages, these wars skyrocketed urbanisation (Milano an early in time example).

This all happens long time before the industrial society except for those countries where the burghers revolt did not or did hardly happen. Russia the extreme example of going from feudal almost directly to industrial.

BTW If the factory workers revolution would have been as succesful in the end of the 19th century as the burghers revolution in 1300, we would be living in another society by now.

But yeah... the burghers revolution was based on knowledge, on local self-determination, on creating economy. And their foe, the feudal elite, doing nothing except status luxuries and wars, best comparable to the current corporate shareholders.
 
One advantage of a small nation. The implementation scale needs to be small enough to be "local" but fit within a larger broader plan that can take in more geography and people.

The Netherlands has a population of 17 million with an economy larger than Turkey's. It's not really that small.

For nation-states with populations in the high tens or hundreds of millions of people... this is what federalism is for.
 
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