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Comprehensive Leader : Pericles, the underrated Greek

Discussion in 'Civ4 - Strategy & Tips' started by AlienSexFilth, May 21, 2009.

  1. Manco Capac

    Manco Capac Friday,13 June,I Collapse

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    And what's the problem with necroing threads? Can anyone explain it to me. I asked this question like 3 times.
     
  2. Kaitzilla

    Kaitzilla Lord Croissant

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    Necroing threads starts up conversations again on a topic when the original poster is most likely long dead and buried. So the main contributor is not able to respond.

    Nothing wrong with that of course! Dig up the graves and let's see what the skeletons have to say for themselves. Always spooky when the original poster chimes in again.


    Bring me AlienSexFilth! I want to see the public display game on Monarch :groucho:
     
  3. Manco Capac

    Manco Capac Friday,13 June,I Collapse

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  4. alex15

    alex15 2004

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    I wasnt person who bumped this 2009 thread in 2012. But i totally disagree that "necroing" is bad.

    Most people who reading this threads coming not from forums but from search engines i.e. i got here just now by typing something like "Civ4 Pericles strategy", thousands of peoples reading old threads but not responding in them because they are not even registred in forums.

    So it doesnt matter if original poster will read response or not since thousands of other people who came with same question will read it, maybe not now but few months later.

    And sometimes also old necroed threads getting many new intresting responses from different posters. This thread is not one of them, probably no one gone post here anymore. But there is some old threads in Civ4 General discuss forums that was necroed many times in 2012 and in 2013 and got many new intresting responses.

    Horever in some situations necroing is bad like insulting/trolling person who left forums many years ago.

    In late games when only conquest/cultural victory is enabled great artists and great merchants are more useful then great sciencists

    Whiping and Specialist economy both req food citys, but still sometimes people do both whipping specialist economy, like whp for now during war, and grow city for SE later after war will be over or something.
     
  5. Seraiel

    Seraiel Chieftain

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    Pericles is awesome for culture victories because he can stay in slavery and whip the missionaries + temples + cathedrals like he wants while being able to hire high amounts of Artists to generate the GAs for the culture-bombs and otw. get a very nice :culture: bonus from the Odeon which is even cheap to build because it gets fastened up from his trait and usually even doubles :culture: early because construction can even be oracled.
     
  6. Manco Capac

    Manco Capac Friday,13 June,I Collapse

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    I am sure most people dislikes necroing actions just because others don't like it. Sheep effect. Most can't get over the conventions. They prefer to stick to irrational thoughts.

    Still, Kaitzilla still brought up a correct point. But I still think it's mass hysteria. I think it's better reinforcing old well-built older threads than just scattering the information in a swarm of threads.
     
  7. Orion Pax

    Orion Pax Chieftain

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    Necroing this again.. :satan:

    Just won my 2nd immortal game, this time cultural. Pericles was stellar.

    The Odeon’s 3 upgrades from the Colosseum were all felt 100% at different points:

    1. +2:) from one building that cheap was so clutch at the time and allowed delaying of other techs & builds for happiness.

    2. +3:culture: is a lot when you can follow that up with +3:culture: more from a theatre. Great for peacefully expanding borders and building raw culture before the big culture buildings.

    3. The 2 extra artist specialist slots meant more cities could contribute to GA generation while growing their culture. And that made good synergy with the Philosophical trait.

    As for being underrated, it does seem Pericles does get left out of top tier since Cultural trait is not valued highly by many, and actually his 2 starting techs are actually regarded as the weakest (cheapest to self tech and fairly limited; BW is 2 techs out).

    But Philosophical is arguably the best trait for cultural victory for all the Great Artist generation, and of course it’s powerful overall: Great Scientists for teching, including bulbing Philosphy to found Taoism after other religions have filtered in. The Cultural trait while not overpowering like Financial is at least directly beneficial in the exact area of focus, and extra so with half price unique building with all the mentioned bonuses.

    The overall benefit of Cultural, also, is I think under-appreciated: quality city placements for better rexing, quick border pops negating needs for other buildings or wonders that muddy your GP pool (Stonehenge) or founding an early religion. So can actually delay Mysticism and focus on worker techs, beelining for Writing.
     
    Last edited: May 20, 2019
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  8. krikav

    krikav Theorycrafter

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    Who underrates Pericles? I think he is one of the best leaders in the game. :)

    Not really because of cultural aspects, but for warlike aproaches.
    Phi+Cre unlocks so many gambits, and the odeon is really nice, especially since it's half-priced with pericles.
    The fact that it is possible to conquer is borderline insane, as it provides culture straight out of revolt in alot of cities.

    If you really want to see pericles in his best, he should have a start with pigs and horses+ivory nearby, and a reasonable target to hit with HAs, and another to follow up with construction. :)
    AH->Writing, then cheap libraries and philosophical gives you a math bulb. Oh, and then you are right on track toward construction!
     
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  9. AcaMetis

    AcaMetis Chieftain

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    What drags Pericles down is being attached to the Greek. The Odeon isn't bad, especially for the price of a Creative Colosseum, but his starting techs are horrible and his UU might as well not exist.
     
  10. Fippy

    Fippy Micro Junkie Queen

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    Imo their starting techs are not that horrible, with fishing & hunting you can always improve your food (by teching Agri, AH or use workboats).
    Sure they are still below average, but mysticism is worse.
     
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  11. Orion Pax

    Orion Pax Chieftain

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    Yeah not a game breaker by any means. Defensively is nice early on to be able to build one all-purpose unit for more efficient stacks.

    It’s bonus should really be extended to other early mounted units, namely the horse archer, but maybe even knight or elephants. The idea seems it’s a melee unit good at both melee combat and against horses due to its spears. And historically it was the Roman Legions that ultimately broke the Greek Phalanx, not dudes on horseback.
     
    Last edited: May 21, 2019
  12. rah

    rah Warlord Supporter

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    Yeah, maybe not to knights or elephants but at least to horse archers.
     
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  13. sampsa

    sampsa Ghost

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    I think even Ballista Elephant is slightly more valuable than Phalanx. Former has a function when facing aggressive AI stacks (and it lasts until ~1200 AD), but the latter is just a rather weak defensive bonus on a unit that is significant only in the BCs. I'd rather defend with spears, and you will always have some since you start with hunting and it's rather inconvenient to gather up an army swiftly by building only one type of units.
     
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  14. Fippy

    Fippy Micro Junkie Queen

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    Ballistas are great in always war games, not that those are played much thou ~~
    When tons of units stand outside your city, it's nice if you can pick mounted out.
    Especially Knights, with their first strike immunity they can damage super defenders (usually general boosted in AW) who will still be "just" longbows often.
     
  15. lymond

    lymond Rise Up! (Phoenix Style!) Hall of Fame Staff

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    Yeah, to me, Phalanxes and Balistas are little better than their stock counterparts, and I treat them as such. As My said though, Balistas have some uses. I tend not to like any UU that has an "ability" as opposed some kind of promo that carries with upgrade. Exception being the Keshik, and well the Musketeers are nice in stacks of Curs. (and well the Q but I don't particular like the Q)

    They probably should have given the Phalanx Formation. Yeah, not spectacular in the long run but makes some sense as the Greek Phalanx was made up primarily from spearmen. (and it used to actually be a spearman in earlier versions).
     
    Last edited: May 21, 2019
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  16. elmurcis

    elmurcis Chieftain

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    If Greece would start without Hunting, UU could have more situational use as probably could skip Hunting for some time (if playing without barbs or easy to fogbust), keeping Warriors possible to build and still be able to potentially rush AI that has no metal but have Chariots+Archers.
     
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  17. AcaMetis

    AcaMetis Chieftain

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    It would work really well for Alex, since Aggressive Warriors backed by a (cheap) Barracks is surprisingly decent barb defence.
     
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  18. ArchGhost

    ArchGhost Chieftain

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    Great trait combo. second worst starting tech combo in the game though, and "meh" uniques.

    I prefer Alex just for the AGG warriors + barracks, nice for busting purposes or picking on a close neighbor early, and works better with the Phalanx if you were to use it for things that Axes are good for. Either of them can piggyback off the PHI trait so I just prefer that boon instead of free border pops + cheaper libraries.

    Phalanx isn't anything too special, while on that topic, but it has a niche against AIs that always seem to get horses quickly (like Mongols). You can just spam them and not have to tech Hunting for defense against Chariot attrition...but then again, Greece is given Hunting anyway, and a single spear will do a number on many opportunistic Chariots, so not so big a deal.
     
  19. Izuul

    Izuul Level 86

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    The starting techs might not be horrible, but they are what prevent Pericles from being ridiculously good at most of the rush gambits. On the surface he looks like the ideal candidate for any early bulb strat, but starting with Fishing is actively detrimental to bulbing Engineering, and nearly always needing to tech things like Ag/AH, Mining, and TW results in getting Writing later than other leaders which negates the advantage of the cheap library with Creative.

    I think he's a very good leader overall and it's hard to have a bad early game with Pericles, but the starting techs (and i guess the UU to a lesser extent) are what prevent him from being a tier 1 leader.
     
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  20. Orion Pax

    Orion Pax Chieftain

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    Yeah the starting techs are brutal, even moreso on marathon where you’re getting the worker out faster relative to the needed techs. If seafood is available then I find workboats a good first build as they do 3 things: allow city to grow, scratch out a few valuable :commerce:, and more :food: for quicker worker/settler production. But still, starting with the two cheapest techs is :cringe:.

    Sooooo maybe that points us to Pericles in unrestricted leaders? :D How might people pair him then?
     
    Last edited: Aug 9, 2019

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