Conquest 03: First Spoiler (end of ancient age)

[bradleyfeanor]

Open

A few tips on archipelago maps:

Explore! The more contacts you have, the more options you have for tech trading. Buy and sell, sell and buy! Its easier to keep-up in the tech race than you think, especially if you research the techs that the AI doesn't often go for, and can sell them.

Defence: Without giving too much away about the actual game, as a suggested strategy, look at active defence. For example: How can you stop the AI landing on your shores? If he can't get to you, he can't attack you! The Dromon is a very useful unit, as it has lethal sea bombard. Hunting in packs, you should be able to sink AI galleys fairly easily, and you can even hide in-port to stop the AI galleys getting to you first.

On defence: Use the terrain defensively, and this includes your cultural borders. A little trick that is quite useful is to have a city on the border with a cultural boundary of two, and road to the boundary. Stationing mobile troops in this city (especially horsemen) gives you a free-attack at anything wandering in to your territory - as mentioned above, try and beat the AI to build the statue of zeus: One free ancient cav every five turns is an excellent unit!

Hmmm. Well now. I don't know what to say. I did none of these things. That can’t be a good thing

Initial moves
My warrior took the initial step west and spotted the cottony tail of a deer peeking out of the fog SW, SW. You can see it (somewhat) in the lower right corner of the blowup box below:

I decided to head inland and settle W, W, NW. I would found my first city on the river, within range of both the cow and the game. The deciding factor was actually palace location: hopefully the move would give me a more central location and prevent a palace move later. I would lose the coast though, which will certainly hurt a bit on foreign contacts and research.

When I spotted the ivory, I wanted to go for a 20k, but I chickened out. I have found it difficult to secure the Colossus in many of my games at diety level, and since I had already moved my settler away from the coast, it would be very unlikely that I would get it in this one. It should be most interesting to follow DaveMcW’s 20k posts.

My build order was warrior, warrior, granary (2750bc), settler, worker, barracks, spear (because of a forest chop), settler, warrior, and then warrior/settler until 1373bc. I then did a few 2-turn warrior/worker cycles, and went back to warrior/settler.

Exploration and Expansion
I initially thought that Constantinople would be a settler factory, but when I chopped the game and noted the shield given by the tile (I didn't even know that was possible! Was this an Ainwood modification?), I realized it could make a 4-turn 5/7 warrior/settler factory (warrior built first turn, then a settler in 3 turns). The pic below shows the city on the third turn of the cycle, and the only turn that required micromanagement. The citizen working the forest tile had to be moved to the irrigated ivory, as shown by my beautifully artistic arrow. This would maintain growth on every second turn.

A southern warrior met Ghandi (no trades available) in 3100bc, and the warrior then fortified at a choke location to keep Ghandi from coming into my territory. I didn't build my first curragh until 2110. Contact with the other civs was relatively late due to moving inland for my first city:
Russians, 1700bc
Ottomans, 1550
Dutch, 1475
Carthage, 1375
Vikings, 1025
Persia, 1000

Barbs were not much of an issue. Due to the vet warrior/settler factory, I had the warriors to crush huts, and the settlers to colonize the northern peninsula quickly.

Research and Trading
Initial research was pottery at max, then writing at minimum. Pottery was a mistake, as Ghandi got it the turn before me. This turned out to not be a big deal though. I thought that playing on Open level (my first time) would slow down the tech pace from Predator, but boy was I wrong!

I made my first trade in 1550bc. Osman had IW, but didn’t have Alphabet.
Alphabet, 3gpt and 18g to Osman for IW.
IW, 2gpt and 17g to Ghandi for CB and Masonry. Ghandi is up Math on everyone.

1475bc: The Dutch have writing and it is still seven turns before I get it. I decide that getting Philosophy first might still be a possibility if I trade so:
Masonry, 135g and 2gpt to Dutch for writing
Writing to India for Myst, Math and 139g
Writing to Osman for Poly and WC
Math to Dutch for TW and 235g
Writing to Russia for HR and 39g
Poly to Ghandi for 88g

That left everyone broke except me and the Russians: I had 685g and they had 193. I switched research to Philosophy at 90%. It was due in 10 turns, and I was losing 9gpt. I suspected that race for Philosophy was going to be very, very close given the frantic tech pace already.

1375bc: I met Carthage, and they already had Philosophy
245g to Carthage for Phil
HR to Dutch for 55g
Phil to Russia for 184g
A few civs had MM, but Phil alone wouldn’t get it for me and I didn’t feel it was necessary to pay for it. I expected to meet a few more civs soon to bring the price down, because Carthage was doing too well technologically: they had to have a trading partner. I set research on Lit at 90% due in 15 turns, losing 9gpt.

1250bc
Phil and 192g to India for MM and 2 workers.

Over the next several turns, I watched Carthage get CoL and Construction. I had three curraghs desperately searching for their trading partner(s), but I couldn’t find them. I was the first to get Lit in 1050, but Carthage’s monopoly prices on CoL and Construction were too high. Then the next turn I found the Vikings, and the turn after (1000bc), the Persians. All three had CoL and Const, and the Vikings also had Currency.

1000bc
Myst and Phil to Dutch for CoL and 15g.
Poly to Dutch for 39g.
CoL to Ghandi for 184g (all).
CoL to Ottomans for 64g (all)
Literature, 5gpt and 107g to Persians for Const
Lit to Carthage for 178g
Lit to the Vikings for 118g

Currency at the monopoly price was 770g. It would have been nice to be in the Middle Ages at 1000bc, but that was too expensive.

My stats at the end of the QSC:
8 cities
25 pop
1 settler
9 workers
17 warriors (nearly all veterans)
1 spear
3 curragh
943g
16gpt
All techs except Currency and the two governments
Republic due in 50 at 10% science
3 barracks
2 granaries
Score: Last place with 300. The Indians are at 702.

And then we come to the turn 975bc: a turn that included an endless stream of profanity and a monitor very nearly cast out of the window. It took me about 45 minutes to play the turn. The short version is that I had Feudalism, Monotheism, Engineering and over 1250g in my treasury.

Then the COMPUTER CRASHED.

And guess what? When I reloaded, I did the exact same thing. Did everything happen the same thanks to the RNG? Oh no, of course not. None of us got the same techs, and the end result was not nearly as good. And it took me another 30 minutes to play the turn.

Eventually I recovered my wits. The second version (aka: the crappy version) of the turn’s trading went like this:
The Russians and Ottomans have monarchy. I establish an embassy with Russia. I trade Russia Construction and Lit for Monarchy, an RoP and 25g. I establish an Embassy with the Vikings. Monarchy enables me to get Currency from the Vikings, plus 3g (all) and an RoP. I get Engineering for my free tech. I establish an Embassy with Persia. I give Persia Currency for 116g and an RoP. They get Feudalism and will not trade. I give the Ottomans Currency and Construction. They get Engineering also. Crap. I gift Currency to the Russians. They get Feudalism. I trade Persia Engineering for Feudalism. I trade Carthage Monarchy for 135g. Start Invention at 10%.

Plans
Thanks mostly to my 4-turn warrior/settler factory, I had 14 vet warriors, 2 vet spears and 1 cat ready for upgrade, so I needed to attack India and get in my GA asap. In addition, given the rapid tech pace, I decided to try for a spaceship victory. That meant at some point I needed to be in a Republic, but that was the only AA tech that was not available. Therefore, I decided to try something new (for me): Feudalism. I would have to go through a second revolution at some point, but I felt it would be interesting to try something new.

In order to have a good finish date, I will need to take most of India’s cities quickly, but I am not sure that will be possible. They are quite large and strong. If I can start my GA quickly, then I will alternate my cities between building military and markets/libraries throughout the conflict. I should have started the SoZ early (like Ainwood said), as it would be a big help right about now.

 

[Longasc]

I like your city placement, but Nicaea should be at the river.

I would also have only moved 1 tile or settled at the spot with Constantinople where right now Varna is. I however played Conquests class, so I really had no need for a settler factory, your idea to move inland was probably a very smart move for the open class!

I would have placed Adrianople also one tile farther south, on the HILL - giving it a defensive boost, for the case of the feared Indian aggression, even if I consider them to be the most peaceful civ (AGG Rating 1 of 5...experience of a peaceful India in all my other games so far)

 

[Megalou]

He-he. I ended the ancient age with 3010 gold in my pocket. I only lost one spearman to barbs and did not get an uprising. I smashed the one barb camp I had on the continent, and then made sure there was no fog anywhere on the continent when the new age came. 2 dromons on barb duty were useful to bombard barb ships and land units and then hide in cities.

I did both Writing and Republic in 50 turns, although I ended up buying Writing with 9 turns left, and so did not enter MA until 500 BC. Carthage had writing when I found them, so I chickened out and took Code of Laws as the free tech. I sold philosophy to two isolated civs but kept Code of Laws for myself. A monopoly on Republic put me in a good position to enter MA.

Chopping the game revealed a bonus grassland underneath. I don't think I've ever seen a bonus grassland with game before. Setting up a 4-turn settler factory proved very easy after that. The one luxury was enough since it ran from size 3 to 5. But I did build one settler before the granary. I ended up with 12 towns at the end of the QSC, along with som military poilce. The worker number was adequate until I started to road towards the horses with nine of them. The remaining ones were too few and I worked some really bleak tiles for a while.

India started very agressively, declaring war with their exploring warrior that had walked past the choke point. Luckily, I had one warrior for each of my 2 cities, but there was a 30% risk of disaster. I then discovered the hill at the chokepoint and decided to send a spearman there with the hope of getting him up to elite. But the Indian army of warriors beat me to it and I sued for peace the same turn I traded Writing from Carthage, and Gandhi went back to polite. Hopefully he will stay that way until I have formed a reasonable army. Meanwhile, I plan to launch a skirmish with the Netherlands and try to get the Indians to join in. I don't want to fight Indian pikemen and I definitely don't want to fight Swiss mercenaries, so their science must be slowed down. A few ancient cavalry should be able to keep the Dutch at bay.

Here's Theodora's realm at 500 BC:

 

[bed_head7]

Maybe the food bonus/bonus grassland is a GOTM thing. I don't remember ever seeing one in a regular game, but there was a wheat/bonus grassland somewhere in GOTM33.

 

[AlanH]

Maybe the food bonus/bonus grassland is a GOTM thing. I don't remember ever seeing one in a regular game, but there was a wheat/bonus grassland somewhere in GOTM33.

I don't think the random map generator is allowed to create one. But ainwood and his map editor are all-powerful

 

[MiniMe]

Open class

Settled next to the cow, I was not experienced enough to see the game. Tech trading went allright. I was looking in disbelief when I found out I missed out on the writing-philosophy combo. Ottomans got it, and took mapmaking. Might not be so bad after all since it delayed entry into MA.

At year 1000 BC I have:

7 cities
1 settler
7 workers
8 warriors
4 spearmen
1 dromon

Contact with all Civs.

Missing literature, monarchy, republic and currency.

Moving into MA a few turns later. Got Feudalism, and traded instantly with Ottomans for Engineering. This means Trebuchets and Pikemen and Medieval Infantry to supplement my Ancient Cavalry. Pulling a 6 turn anarchy period before switching to Monarchy.

Strategy is of course to kick indian butt, but may prove difficult...

Hmmm... Have a picture to include, but couldnt find out how to do it. I will look for it later.

 

[ainwood]

I don't think the random map generator is allowed to create one. But ainwood and his map editor are all-powerful

See? I'm nice after all!

 

[Mauer]

See? I'm nice after all!

Who else here, thinks it was a slip of the mouse?

BTW, don't tell Detlef Richter I had to replay this game! He thinks I am DemiGod!

 

[dmanakho]

See? I'm nice after all!

I will return to this comment when we discuss our 3rd spoiler.

 

[jazz_man]

hi!

my ancient age was stressful, felt hopelessly behind throughout! suppose i learnt something from the game though. i'll share my most amusing moments:

* built earlier granaries than i normally do. tried to micromanage
woodchoppers so that logs were not delivered when there's only a shield
left on a warrior - think the program discards your precious shields if there's
an overflow!

* discovered that i could buy science for lots more than i can afford and
count on getting it back & more when i sell it on to the others! think the
biggest risk i took would have crippled me with 20-21gpt. i now check the
foreign advisor every turn and buy for outragous price if there is a new
tech.

* a town on that land-brigde-hill to India when 8-9 indian
middle age infantry give you a fright was good fun! I had 5-6 dromons
warming them up before they came in range for my swordsmen

* thought i'd be able to get a peace bargin if i took an indian town in the war,
chose to invade the little island of the coast since they were way to
strong beyond the choke point. this proved a good idea, no
retaliations! my dromons were rulers of the sea. less fun was that it
culture flipped a few decades after the peace =(

* built lots of harbors, have started to really like this improvement since it
gives you extra food without having to work lots of tiles, and of course
even better variants of my new fav unit - the dromon!

post a picture of my land 1000bc though i reached the spoiler criteria 290bc.

cheers,
john

 

[flexo]

OK I'm such a chicken, previous gotms at this kind of level have all ended in quite imbarrasing conqest losses early on (still have nightmares about the one where persia so crushed me). So what this mean is that I downloaded the conquest saves.

With two settlers and two workers I did feel a bit more confident, I moved around for three or was it four turns before settling (one city by the ivory and one further down south).

I knew now that atleast I would get to build one wonder. After a while I noticed I shared a land with india, and they breed like bunnies. I put up a choke point city so if they wanted to come to my side of the island they would have to take the boat (they never did).

Realising that it was india and me stuck on an island I knew I would have to take them out sooner rather then later or there wouldn't be any civ for me, for some deluded reason I seemed to think that hey no ivory no special unit for india (misstake! but thankfully it never got that far).

I cranked out my towns and settled my half, and a few turns before constructing the Temple of Zeus India declared war on me. Thankfully my chokepoint in Varna (right next to the little hill) had a wall, barrack and defence a plenty. Gandi sent wave after wave of swordmen that got cut down, chopped up and left to die.

This was with india would last for what felt like a thousand years or so. I just held back and let him come to me until I had a stack of ancient cavalry, I also changed era and stacked up on medieval infantry (for the next era) and charged into his land.

I'm not sure I could have done this without the extra starting settler conquest granted me. I sailed around a bit in my boat in the beginning making contacts and money, at some time I had close to 1000 gold but nothing to buy, I think I only found one single worker to buy durring the whole QSC (and I looked pretty much every darn turn).

At the end of the QSC things looked pretty good, but then the computer had not all met eachother yet and started to give eachother techs.

I also noted the barbarians where acting strange, they just pretty much sat there in there village building the barbarian stack of dooooooooom but never attacked (didn't eliminate the volcano stack until the end of the medieval era or was it the start of the industrial one).

 

[Roland Ehnström]

I didn't remove the last of the Barbarians until I had Infantry. They didn't do any harm, so I just let the 30+ stacks of Horsemen sit there for a few thousend years.
-- Roland

 

[socralynnek]

Conquest Class:

My Ancient Age was well, but it might have something to do that I first tried an Open Class game but it was hopeless so I decided to get a new start with Conquest class game.

So, I also settled to that hill in the small land stripe between me and india and they than decided to declare war on me. I got an MGL two turns later and ttok my army to go and pillage their iron ressources. So they couldn't build swordsman but I could... By the end of the Ancient Age (I was first in Middle Ages getting Feudalism as a free tech), almost all India was conquered.
I got contacts with 3 curraghs till 800BC.
But that war with india (a few turns in the Middle Ages I conquered whole India) had some drawbacks, I didn't have the time to change governments so after that I decided to wait for democracy and it was at the beginning of the Middle Ages when I finally build the SoZ and three rival cities were on my island. So, up to the middle of the middle ages, it went very well...but then...

 

[Ambiorix]

Open

summary first :
I reached the MA in 1000BC, with :
- 7 cities, 14 pop.
- 2 settlers, 2 workers, 4 warriors, 3 archers, 2 spearman, 1 dromon, 1 curragh
- 2 granaries
- all AA-techs except literature, plus feudalism and engineering
- contacts with all civs, plus embassies (except Persia due to war)
- 1048g.

The details :
I went NW with the worker, saw the cow, and decided to move the settler NW too. It's already been discussed in the pre-game thread, but when you see the cow and do some calculations, you quickly see that there is absolutely no gain by settling directly. That's a rather new phenomenon, since in previous COTM's and GOTM's you could always make a case for either moving or settling.

First worker actions were :
- irrigate and road the cow
- connect the ivory
- mine and road the bonus grassland next to the river
- cut forest, irrigate and road the deer-tile
I think that's about the optimal sequence for that first worker. Anyone agree or disagree ?

Contact with India in 2950BC (turn 22), Holland in 2850BC (turn 24), Russia in 2800BC (turn 25), Ottomans in 2750BC (turn 26), Persia in 2630BC (turn 29), Vikings in 2510BC (turn 32) and Carthago in 2430BC (turn 34).

I started researching minimum on writing, but ended up buying it in 1910BC from Persia in return for other techs I traded for. Persia was second after the Vikings to discover writing before me. At that time I had no hope to get a republic slingshot, and gradually started to trade writing away for other techs or cash. I even had to give it to India to avoid war. However, it seemed like the AI had absolutely no interest in researching Philosophy - I'm suspecting the game is modded to let the AI consider it as a very low priority.
In any case, after I got writing, I went full-out (70% I think) on Code of Laws, getting it after 25 turns (1200BC, turn 73), and then Philosophy (90%, -2gpt) which I got in 1000BC (just!), resulting in Republic as free tech. In the same turn I popped a hut that gave me Currency, sending me into the MA (feudalism for free). Since I wasn't planning on playing beyond the AA, I got a little bold and decided to gift techs away to bring the other scientific civ's also into the MA and hope they got a different free tech. That worked only with Persia : they got engineering, and I traded for it.

I'm expecting the top players to do a lot better, since I got a huge setback in 2390BC (turn 35), when an out-of-the-blue barb horseman destroyed my second settler and went on to destroy a well-underway granary.
[rant]
Ainwood, what's the use of setting the barb level that high ? I can accept it as a gameplay-factor, but the increased importance of the RNG makes comparative gameplay more difficult. I think we had this whole discussion back in Cracker's days, and that the conclusion was that a high barb level hinders comparison of different games.
[/rant]
Oh well, the bad luck then was more than made up for by popping that hut in 1000BC, but still...

Attached is my QSC-log. You may not be interested in the details of the curragh-travels, but it also contains the details on all tech-trades I did.
Enjoy !

 

[flexo]

Conquest Class:
So, I also settled to that hill in the small land stripe between me and india and they than decided to declare war on me. I got an MGL two turns later and ttok my army to go and pillage their iron ressources. So they couldn't build swordsman but I could...

Your India only had one Iron? Mine had two. After I had captured Delhi I raced to disconnect the iron, thinking I was safe but they still the swordmen came out ... Found out they had a second source in the other mountain chain (at that time covered in darkness).

For all my wars with india (and the rest of the game) I didn't score a single great leader. Not one, I had my elite stack but NOTHIN'.

 

[bradleyfeanor]

I like your city placement, but Nicaea should be at the river.)

You are right. As I move through the middle ages looking at that one wasted marsh on my map, it is most annoying!

I would have placed Adrianople also one tile farther south, on the HILL - giving it a defensive boost, for the case of the feared Indian aggression, even if I consider them to be the most peaceful civ (AGG Rating 1 of 5...experience of a peaceful India in all my other games so far)

My settler was actually heading to that hill, but I hit b on accident. Since the spot wasn't that bad though, I didn't worry about it. I knew I had more than enough forces to handle Ghandi should he decide to get uppity.

 

[Ronald]

Having severe time constraintys this month, I am trying an OCC. I have neverdone it on demigod, my best try is on emperor (it was season 2 or 3 game of the tournament).

Archipelago is a nice setting for OCC, seafaring and scientific are great too, so if there is a chance, it is probably the best shot.

The anciemt times went quite well. I sent 3 ships to make contact with all civs and traded as much as possible.
My research path was writing at min., Col at max. Philosophy at max. Free tech Republic. I was not sure this will work, and were considering going writing , philosophy and literature as free tech (having the great library in mind), but decided not to. The statue of Zeus gave me free units, so I could concentrate on building infrastructure and getting a decent military force, so I had very little AI demands.
The only wonder I built in the ancient time was collosus for improved research.
Persia landed an archer on my little empire and declared war. I formed alliances with India (started to settle on my continent) and some others. I sent I dromon to Persia wanting to start my GA in early middle ages.
At the end of the ancient age I was with the tech leaders and saved more than 1000g.

So far I am on track, but the more difficult times are coming.

 

[denyd]

I learned a couple of things in this game:

1. Demi-God on Conquests is tougher that Diety on PTW because of the increased minimum research time makes that difficult to use after the early game and the increased upgrade charges make building cheaper units and upgrading is too expensive.

2. Dromons rank right there with the F-15, Man-O-War and Carrack as the worst UU in the game. Sure they are a terror against another ships, however when swarmed by 4-5 barbarian galleys, they sink as easily as other galleys and their bombard ability against land targets is streaky in it's
effectiveness and seems to fail when you need it most.

3. Having the Indians as a neighbor is a blessing and a curse. The blessing is they start out passive in trading, willing to make even swaps. The curse is in the early Middle Ages when at war with them, does not prevent them from building their most potent attacker, the War Elephant.

I made it to about 250 AD, before I decided to give it up (something I rarely do). I've been able to fight India to a standstill for the last 500 years, but I'm now falling so far behind in technology, that it's just a matter of time before the game is out of hand. When I reached the first spoiler end, I was the second to reach the middle ages, and shortly thereafter through some trading had all the first level techs. 25 turns later and I haven't added a tech and I'm behind everyone by 3 techs and have no hope of ever catching up. With 3 AI bordering on huge and the others using their purchase premium (and demanding catchup techs from me), all of my opponents are far ahead of me. I just saw my first musket and cavalry is not far behind. I'm able to finally get Theology for peace with India, but find both the newly available techs already known.

Mistakes made:

1. Trading away 600g to Russia for an alliance when India first attacked. I probably could have weathered the initial Indian attacks and got peace and still had the extra cash. Looking back that would have only delayed the inevitable.

2. Thinking I would be able to research a minimum on Theology and get it, though the fastest I could have afforded was 41 turns at 50%. I needed 20% for happiness and 30% for troop support.

3. Not just taking the weekend off and skipping this game altogether.

I'll see everybody on GOTM 34 and wait for a lower level COTM before trying again.

 

[socralynnek]

Your India only had one Iron? Mine had two. After I had captured Delhi I raced to disconnect the iron, thinking I was safe but they still the swordmen came out ... Found out they had a second source in the other mountain chain (at that time covered in darkness).

For all my wars with india (and the rest of the game) I didn't score a single great leader. Not one, I had my elite stack but NOTHIN'.

I wrote "ressources". Yes it was two (which could be traded later on...). But the second was just connected to one city (but I pillaged it anyway)

I even got a second leader by the end of the Ancient Age...it was luck...

 

[Shinatoo]

One thing I've learned from this game is that if you keep a log you will play much better. I'm not posting mine because it has nothing profound. However, I've never thought I had a chance at this level, and so far, not so bad.