Conservatives against ID

[Boris Godunov]

Life on Earth, started by random chance, is almost as unlikely as it being designed by aliens.

Says you. *shrug*

That's an opinion devoid of fact, however, since he have utterly no frame of reference and thus no means of calculating odds for the beginning of life by either completely natural or designed means. Anyone who proffers odds calculations on this is full of it.

BTW, "random chance" isn't how abiogenesis or evolution work. This is a common and pernicious misconception.

 

[Boris Godunov]

And a whole series of the right situations, which have yet to be recreated in any lab.

However, we do have the Miller-Uray and subsequent experiments which have proven that organic material arises from inorganic material pretty easily in a variety of conditions. This is the first step to life.

We don't have a petri dish as big as the one available 3.8 billion years ago, nor the time available in a lab. We're talking a vast environment filled with quadrillions and quadrillions of molecules, and time spans longer than humans have been in existence.

But we have been able to layout a logical progression on the development of early life that makes sense sans involvement of supernatural beings. Now, that's not proof of a lack of supernatural interference, but it does indicate it isn't necessary.

 

[eyrei]

The acceptance of the possibility of 'god' is an example of humility, and a positive trait in a person. Until I have a scientific explanation for the 'big bang' that includes the reason for its conception, I am going to assume that there are many things well beyond our understanding which I will call 'god'.

 

[BasketCase]

Okay, I need to say something about that "random chance" thingy.

It seems a whole lot of people try to boil it down to choosing between Divine Intervention or Random Chance. Oh, so you say the Earth wasn't created by a god?? Musta been random chance then!!

Not so.

If you let go of your coffee cup, it always falls downwards and shatters on the floor. Two plus two always equals four. Like electrical charges always repel each other, opposite electrical charges always attract.

When you start off with an initial system and a set of basic rules such as gravity, magnetism, electrical attraction, and other such Basic Laws of the Universe, that system will evolve and change, all by itself, even if you sit back and do absolutely nothing but watch. Conway's counter-and-grid "Life" game is an excellent example of this: a handful of starting Life counters can evolve into complex patterns of hundreds or thousands, with no involvement from the player. God is not driving the evolution, and random chance isn't driving it either.

 

[Neomega]

Says you. *shrug*

That's an opinion devoid of fact, however, since he have utterly no frame of reference and thus no means of calculating odds for the beginning of life by either completely natural or designed means. Anyone who proffers odds calculations on this is full of it.

Indeed it is, but since we are trying to "prove the beginning of the universe", isn't it a little strange to try and talk calculations?

 

[AL_DA_GREAT]

ID is stupid.

 

[Sidhe]

M theory tells us that the universe was created when to membranes colided and that these infinitly flexible sheets of gravity colide all the time to cause multiple realities and universes which means given enough time a random colision will produce a big bang that works. However that sounds like a load of old tosh and has no evidence, a bit like god done it There's a few explanations about the start of the universe but it's doubtfull will ever be able to prove any of them so take your pick none of them is any better than the other.

 

[Che Guava]

When you start off with an initial system and a set of basic rules such as gravity, magnetism, electrical attraction, and other such Basic Laws of the Universe, that system will evolve and change, all by itself, even if you sit back and do absolutely nothing but watch. Conway's counter-and-grid "Life" game is an excellent example of this: a handful of starting Life counters can evolve into complex patterns of hundreds or thousands, with no involvement from the player. God is not driving the evolution, and random chance isn't driving it either.

Sounds like deism!. Maybe its time that it made a come-back....

 

[Perfection]

The acceptance of the possibility of 'god' is an example of humility, and a positive trait in a person. Until I have a scientific explanation for the 'big bang' that includes the reason for its conception,

Physics doesn't have reasons, physics just is.

I am going to assume that there are many things well beyond our understanding which I will call 'god'.

That seems like a rather inappropriate label.

 

[Boris Godunov]

Indeed it is, but since we are trying to "prove the beginning of the universe", isn't it a little strange to try and talk calculations?

You were the one who first mentioned there being some sort of "odds" for something occuring, and that statement inherently involves some sort of calculation of said odds. Unless you've done some calculating, how else could you possibly be even able to speak about "odds"?

 

[Sidhe]

Physics doesn't have reasons, physics just is.

More accurately physics has cause and effect except in the case of existence then it just throws up it's arms goes ugghhhh and dissapears off for a pint.

Physics can't answer that question and probably never will be able to, rather than just say 'we don't know" though it is in some sort of denial about it's inability to answer the big question of before the big bang so it justs says it doesn't exist nananananana! I'm not listening

 

[Neonanocyborgasm]

It's down, but not out. The creationists are going to find a new way of forcing the Genesis myth into the classroom, if not by Intelligent Design, but some new Trojan horse.

As long as there are local school boards that decide on curriculum, there will always be victims of creationist propaganda. There is a solution -- federalize education. Have the federal government establish national standards and force the schools to abide by them.

 

[Boris Godunov]

As long as there are local school boards that decide on curriculum, there will always be victims of creationist propaganda. There is a solution -- federalize education. Have the federal government establish national standards and force the schools to abide by them.

Given who currently runs our federal government, I find that idea frightening and don't think it would result in a better outcome.

 

[blackheart]

As long as there are local school boards that decide on curriculum, there will always be victims of creationist propaganda. There is a solution -- federalize education. Have the federal government establish national standards and force the schools to abide by them.

Given what Boris Gudunov said and the federal government's inability to do anything efficiently, I would have to object. But the federal government already enforces some standards and threaten to cut education funding if the states don't follow them.

 

[JohnRM]

I would never sign or subscribe to such things. These people want to declare that evolution is a process without God for political reasons. They want to exclude the possibility that God exists. I cannot support that.

I believe in the Theory of Evolution as God's Law. If these people cannot acknowledge the possibility of God's existence, then I shall haven nothing to do with them.

 

[Rad Chris]

Whats the problem with teaching evolution? From the level of ignorance most people show about evolution I would have thought they didnt teach it at all. Im often torn between keeping non-science subject like ID out of the science classroom, and the alternative of actually showing people how ******** it actually is. Teaching evolution properly would be a good start though.

 

[nihilistic]

The acceptance of the possibility of 'god' is an example of humility, and a positive trait in a person. ... I am going to assume that there are many things well beyond our understanding which I will call 'god'.

Uhh, wouldn't it be a lot more honest to refer to something that is beyong your unnderstanding as "something beyond your understanding"? Wouldn't calling it by some easily misinterpreted and misleadingly authoritative name be somewhat dishonest, presuming, and arrogant?

 

[Sahkuhnder]

However, we do have the Miller-Uray and subsequent experiments which have proven that organic material arises from inorganic material pretty easily in a variety of conditions. This is the first step to life.

We don't have a petri dish as big as the one available 3.8 billion years ago, nor the time available in a lab. We're talking a vast environment filled with quadrillions and quadrillions of molecules, and time spans longer than humans have been in existence.

But we have been able to layout a logical progression on the development of early life that makes sense sans involvement of supernatural beings. Now, that's not proof of a lack of supernatural interference, but it does indicate it isn't necessary.

Excellent point.

As there is no scientific data to support ID at the same level it makes sense that a science class would include science and leave ID discussions for philosophy or theology where they are welcomed.

 

[warpus]

I would never sign or subscribe to such things. These people want to declare that evolution is a process without God for political reasons. They want to exclude the possibility that God exists. I cannot support that.

I believe in the Theory of Evolution as God's Law. If these people cannot acknowledge the possibility of God's existence, then I shall haven nothing to do with them.

There is nothing political about it - God might very well have had something to do with it - but since there is no proof for such a hypothesis and it isn't fasifiable - it does not belong in a science classroom.

 

[Sidhe]

JohnHSOG though, we teach children about God in the Religous Education lessons, we teach Children about evolution in the science class, each has a message that is diluted by irrelevance in bringing one into the others classroom, kids are perfectly capable of coming to God of there own accord and if they leave it it wont be because of evolution, it'll be because he or she has the knowledge and wisdom to make a choice for his or herself.