Constitutional crisis: Showdown between Florida state agents and police just averted

[Dida]

I think they just let inject some poison in her to let her die quickly. I know she does not feel the pain of starvation, but that is still not very nice to do.

 

[Uiler]

While I'm still wrestling with the question of whether The Tube should be put back in or not, I agree whole-heartedly on euthanizing. If you think pulling out The Tube leaves you with a clean consciousness--pretty please, don't delude yourself. If you pull out The Tube, you know perfectly well you killed her. Do it with sodium cyanide instead.

It's not legal to give her a lethal injection. If the doctors use sodium cyanide as you suggest they would be jailed for murder. If you disagree with this you should push for changes in the law. However, everyone has the constutional right to refuse medical treatment (including water and food). If you are in a permanent vegetative state this right to refuse goes to your legal guardian (usually your parents or your spouse if you are married). Besides as I explained in a previous post, starving to death (assuming a total lack of food and not say famine or concentration camp conditions where you have access to little bits of food) is not really painful, even assuming that she can even feel pain.

 

[FearlessLeader2]

It's common, public knowledge that the husband is having an affair. He lives with another woman and has two children by her. It was ironic listening to his brother on TV talking about how "committed" he was.

Whatever your position on this case, I'm sure that most people wouldn't want to have a spouse who cheats on them decide whether they live or die. In another state they are considering a law preventing cheating spouses from making these decisions.

Is it cheating if she's dead? No. Terry Schiavo died 13 years ago, her husband came to terms with it and tried to move on. His in-laws have worked to thwart his dead wife's wishes at every turn ever since. Let the man bury his wife and move on.

 

[Nobody]

If you pull out The Tube, you know perfectly well you killed her. Do it with sodium cyanide instead.

if you inject her, or smother her with a pillow its killing her, pulling out her tube is not killing her, if she wants a sandwich no one is going to stop her getting up and making on. taking the tube out is leting nature take its course

 

[h4ppy]

Nuts! The thread sounded intresting but it's just the Continuing Adventures of Comagirl.

 

[~Corsair#01~]

I wonder how history will twist the cause of the second US Civil War to make it seem like there was a good reason...

That was a great movie.

 

[BasketCase]

It's not legal to give her a lethal injection. If the doctors use sodium cyanide as you suggest they would be jailed for murder.

Pulling out The Tube is no different. Like throwing Antigone into the cave. "Oh, we just pulled out The Tube--if she starves to death, it's not our fault."

 

[Uiler]

Pulling out The Tube is no different. Like throwing Antigone into the cave. "Oh, we just pulled out The Tube--if she starves to death, it's not our fault."

Well of course both methods end up killing her. The point is one of them is legal and one of them is not. I would have thought that this point was obvious. If you think this is a contradiction then push for the laws to change. Though I doubt any euthanasia laws allowing actively assisted suicide would apply in this case anyway since any would have strong restrictions (and rightly so) on having a conscious decision or a legal living will.

Honestly speaking, people act as if this situation is something new. It's not. Pulling the plug and letting someone in a permanent vegetative state starve is a fairly standard medical procedure that happens regularly. Even the court cases contesting between family members number in the hundreds. It is something which has a strong legal basis and has been contested a *lot* in courts which all rule consistently on the issue. One newspaper article puts it best when it says that this is an issue that arises periodically every few years, some fuss is made, the court rules to pull the plug, and everyone forgets about it until the next case where everyone suddenly suffers from amnesia about the last time it happened. It's like the whole school shooting thing. The only big issue in this Schiavo case is the involvement of Congress and the interference with judicial branch and the trampling of federation. However the whole pulling the plug issue is nothing new and each time it always ends the same way because pulling the plug has a very consistent strong legal basis on the 14th constitutional amendment which allows the patient to refuse medical treatment (and for those in a permament vegetative state this right to refuse goes to their legal guardian as does all other legal decisions). The 14th amendment issue was raised in the Supreme court many years ago (and will never be challenged by the religious right as if it changes Jehovah's Witnesses could be forced to have blood transfusions and most importantly, women could be forced to have abortions by the state if their doctors believe that their lives are at risk). Which is why the parents are not challenging this but the idea that the state courts did not follow due process OR the idea that Michael Schiavo is not fit to be the legal guardian.

EDIT: To point out how common, accepted and standard this procedure is, even Catholic hospitals practise it, thought they are agonising over it now due to an announcement in 2004 by the Pope that they have an obligation to continue feeding people in a persistant vegetative state. Before that Catholic hospitals allowed the pulling of feeding tubes and it was allowed under Catholic dogma.

http://www.boston.com/news/world/eu...ican_focuses_debate_over_the_end_of_life?pg=2

 

[Azadre]

Has she officially died yet?

 

[MarineCorps]

Gestapo police is exactly what I'm worried about. Judges controlling police and threatening to arrest Governors and Presidents is Gestapo. Just think about it. One judge. One state judge in Florida basically took over the whole country. He directed the police he had control over to fight the Florida police, US Federal Marshals, the FBI, etc.

No he didn't. He gave the order to local police agencies which are under his Jurisdiction. State police are under control of the Deparment of Public Saftey which is part of the exeutive branch. Local polce are under control of the Judical branch.

 

[Jawz II]

I think they just let inject some poison in her to let her die quickly. I know she does not feel the pain of starvation, but that is still not very nice to do.

halleluja!

its obvious this woman isnt living much of a life, if they are worried that she might feel pain from starving to death, maybe they should just show her enough respect to off her fast!

 

[Timko]

Well of course both methods end up killing her. The point is one of them is legal and one of them is not.

Both methods end up with her being dead (totally dead that is). But only one can be considered killing her, which is why only one of them is illegal.

 

[wit>trope]

No he didn't. He gave the order to local police agencies which are under his Jurisdiction. State police are under control of the Deparment of Public Saftey which is part of the exeutive branch. Local polce are under control of the Judical branch.

As I said, I think that's messed up. Local police should not be under the control of the judicial branch. If they are, then they should change it. The founding fathers wrote that the judicial branch has no power of the sword. Having police under the control of the judicial branch contradicts this doctrine of the founding fathers.

 

[Erik Mesoy]

While I'm still wrestling with the question of whether The Tube should be put back in or not, I agree whole-heartedly on euthanizing. If you think pulling out The Tube leaves you with a clean consciousness--pretty please, don't delude yourself. If you pull out The Tube, you know perfectly well you killed her. Do it with sodium cyanide instead.

As Yom said - everything that makes up Terry Schiavo died 15 years ago. There's no reason to keep this body in suspended animation any longer. There's no hope for a miraculous recovery, because Terry's brain is gone. Melted. Replaced by cerebrospinal fluid.

Ironic typo up there - "clean consciousness". Which is exactly what's happened. Terry's consciousness slate is wiped utterly clean. We already have a clean consciousness.

 

[wit>trope]

One doctor on TV said 20% is still left.

Since we only use like 5% of our brain anyways, 20% is significant.

 

[Xen]

The police are managed by the executive branch, but their actions are limited by law.

in this case, they also must be managed by the judicial branch, to other wise prevent an illigle action (by the exectutive branch) from being carried out, however.

 

[MarineCorps]

As I said, I think that's messed up. Local police should not be under the control of the judicial branch. If they are, then they should change it. The founding fathers wrote that the judicial branch has no power of the sword. Having police under the control of the judicial branch contradicts this doctrine of the founding fathers.

Judical=Law Police=Law Enforcement


THe police need to be under control of one branch and putting them under the excutive branch would get rid of checks an balances.

 

[MarineCorps]

One doctor on TV said 20% is still left.

Since we only use like 5% of our brain anyways, 20% is significant.

Um, yeah ok. She has no cereberal cortex. It's be turned into spinal fluid.

 

[Damnyankee]

Didn't know that he has a wife with a few kids. Well, I guess you should throw out what I said about him having an affair(He is technically having one). I say technically because as a other poster mentioned, she has been dead for 13 years.

 

[Cuivienen]

Quite an interesting situation. Would make a good Fiction Book, say, if Jeb Bush actually ordered the DCF to take Schiavo into custody, and there was a showdown.

Actually, it sounds more like a TV show, perhaps something from West Wing.