Copenhagen talks: Doomed from the start or ruined by commies?

aelf

Ashen One
Joined
Sep 16, 2005
Messages
18,183
Location
Tir ná Lia
How do I know China wrecked the Copenhagen deal? I was in the room.
By Mark Lynas

Copenhagen was a disaster. That much is agreed. But the truth about what actually happened is in danger of being lost amid the spin and inevitable mutual recriminations. The truth is this: China wrecked the talks, intentionally humiliated Barack Obama, and insisted on an awful "deal" so western leaders would walk away carrying the blame. How do I know this? Because I was in the room and saw it happen.

China's strategy was simple: block the open negotiations for two weeks, and then ensure that the closed-door deal made it look as if the west had failed the world's poor once again. And sure enough, the aid agencies, civil society movements and environmental groups all took the bait. The failure was "the inevitable result of rich countries refusing adequately and fairly to shoulder their overwhelming responsibility", said Christian Aid. "Rich countries have bullied developing nations," fumed Friends of the Earth International.

All very predictable, but the complete opposite of the truth. Even George Monbiot, writing in yesterday's Guardian, made the mistake of singly blaming Obama. But I saw Obama fighting desperately to salvage a deal, and the Chinese delegate saying "no", over and over again. Monbiot even approvingly quoted the Sudanese delegate Lumumba Di-Aping, who denounced the Copenhagen accord as "a suicide pact, an incineration pact, in order to maintain the economic dominance of a few countries".

Sudan behaves at the talks as a puppet of China; one of a number of countries that relieves the Chinese delegation of having to fight its battles in open sessions. It was a perfect stitch-up. China gutted the deal behind the scenes, and then left its proxies to savage it in public.

Here's what actually went on late last Friday night, as heads of state from two dozen countries met behind closed doors. Obama was at the table for several hours, sitting between Gordon Brown and the Ethiopian prime minister, Meles Zenawi. The Danish prime minister chaired, and on his right sat Ban Ki-moon, secretary-general of the UN. Probably only about 50 or 60 people, including the heads of state, were in the room. I was attached to one of the delegations, whose head of state was also present for most of the time.

What I saw was profoundly shocking. The Chinese premier, Wen Jinbao, did not deign to attend the meetings personally, instead sending a second-tier official in the country's foreign ministry to sit opposite Obama himself. The diplomatic snub was obvious and brutal, as was the practical implication: several times during the session, the world's most powerful heads of state were forced to wait around as the Chinese delegate went off to make telephone calls to his "superiors".

Shifting the blame

To those who would blame Obama and rich countries in general, know this: it was China's representative who insisted that industrialised country targets, previously agreed as an 80% cut by 2050, be taken out of the deal. "Why can't we even mention our own targets?" demanded a furious Angela Merkel. Australia's prime minister, Kevin Rudd, was annoyed enough to bang his microphone. Brazil's representative too pointed out the illogicality of China's position. Why should rich countries not announce even this unilateral cut? The Chinese delegate said no, and I watched, aghast, as Merkel threw up her hands in despair and conceded the point. Now we know why – because China bet, correctly, that Obama would get the blame for the Copenhagen accord's lack of ambition.

China, backed at times by India, then proceeded to take out all the numbers that mattered. A 2020 peaking year in global emissions, essential to restrain temperatures to 2C, was removed and replaced by woolly language suggesting that emissions should peak "as soon as possible". The long-term target, of global 50% cuts by 2050, was also excised. No one else, perhaps with the exceptions of India and Saudi Arabia, wanted this to happen. I am certain that had the Chinese not been in the room, we would have left Copenhagen with a deal that had environmentalists popping champagne corks popping in every corner of the world.

Strong position

So how did China manage to pull off this coup? First, it was in an extremely strong negotiating position. China didn't need a deal. As one developing country foreign minister said to me: "The Athenians had nothing to offer to the Spartans." On the other hand, western leaders in particular – but also presidents Lula of Brazil, Zuma of South Africa, Calderón of Mexico and many others – were desperate for a positive outcome. Obama needed a strong deal perhaps more than anyone. The US had confirmed the offer of $100bn to developing countries for adaptation, put serious cuts on the table for the first time (17% below 2005 levels by 2020), and was obviously prepared to up its offer.

Above all, Obama needed to be able to demonstrate to the Senate that he could deliver China in any global climate regulation framework, so conservative senators could not argue that US carbon cuts would further advantage Chinese industry. With midterm elections looming, Obama and his staff also knew that Copenhagen would be probably their only opportunity to go to climate change talks with a strong mandate. This further strengthened China's negotiating hand, as did the complete lack of civil society political pressure on either China or India. Campaign groups never blame developing countries for failure; this is an iron rule that is never broken. The Indians, in particular, have become past masters at co-opting the language of equity ("equal rights to the atmosphere") in the service of planetary suicide – and leftish campaigners and commentators are hoist with their own petard.

With the deal gutted, the heads of state session concluded with a final battle as the Chinese delegate insisted on removing the 1.5C target so beloved of the small island states and low-lying nations who have most to lose from rising seas. President Nasheed of the Maldives, supported by Brown, fought valiantly to save this crucial number. "How can you ask my country to go extinct?" demanded Nasheed. The Chinese delegate feigned great offence – and the number stayed, but surrounded by language which makes it all but meaningless. The deed was done.

China's game

All this raises the question: what is China's game? Why did China, in the words of a UK-based analyst who also spent hours in heads of state meetings, "not only reject targets for itself, but also refuse to allow any other country to take on binding targets?" The analyst, who has attended climate conferences for more than 15 years, concludes that China wants to weaken the climate regulation regime now "in order to avoid the risk that it might be called on to be more ambitious in a few years' time".

This does not mean China is not serious about global warming. It is strong in both the wind and solar industries. But China's growth, and growing global political and economic dominance, is based largely on cheap coal. China knows it is becoming an uncontested superpower; indeed its newfound muscular confidence was on striking display in Copenhagen. Its coal-based economy doubles every decade, and its power increases commensurately. Its leadership will not alter this magic formula unless they absolutely have to.

Copenhagen was much worse than just another bad deal, because it illustrated a profound shift in global geopolitics. This is fast becoming China's century, yet its leadership has displayed that multilateral environmental governance is not only not a priority, but is viewed as a hindrance to the new superpower's freedom of action. I left Copenhagen more despondent than I have felt in a long time. After all the hope and all the hype, the mobilisation of thousands, a wave of optimism crashed against the rock of global power politics, fell back, and drained away.

Source

I see a few threads here and there that mention the aftermath of the climate change talks and China, but they either sank into the usual climate change debates or never had a coherent start and predictably turned into non-discussion.

So, in view of what apparently happened, what do you think? Was there any potential for a genuine step towards combating climate change with all developed countries agreeing and committing to a coherent plan? Did China ruin everything? Have the commies committed great evil again?

I actually don't find the outcome shocking. First, national interests have priority, right? That has been the name of the game in the West up to maybe a few decades ago for maybe some Western countries. Thus, any outrage against China can only be laughed off. It's going to bad for everyone, I know, but it's the rules you've always played by so I guess you have to pick up the tab now. At least you stand to lose the least from failure except in terms of reputation.

Second, I don't think it's that easy to separate American interests from Chinese interests, so you can hardly blame the latter without looking at the former. Are Americans really interested in a China that is unable to develop without fetters? Has the USA not been the biggest consumer of Chinese products churned out by its burgeoning industries? I wonder if there's not a high level of hypocrisy there, paying lip service to a global cause while really doing the reverse.

Lastly, there seems to be quite a significant number of skeptical laymen and pedestrian deniers in the West itself. If you can't 'get your house in order', how do you expect a country who is not as developed to follow suit?

So I think China's role have to be seen in the context of global politics and climate (haha), in which developed countries have a hand. And we're headed nowhere until dire circumstances force people to take more drastic measures.

Discuss.
 
So, in view of what apparently happened, what do you think? Was there any potential for a genuine step towards combating climate change with all developed countries agreeing and committing to a coherent plan? Did China ruin everything? Have the commies committed great evil again?

The buildup to Copenhagen was underwhelming, it's not surprising the meet itself was the same.

I don't think China ruined anything more than the US has on this. That being said, I think they believe they are doing enough on their own and that the West is instituting a double standard. Or they want to propagate that belief so that they can continue their economic progress without barriers.

I dunno, it's all very frustrating.

Second, I don't think it's that easy to separate American interests from Chinese interests, so you can hardly blame the latter without looking at the former. Are Americans really interested in a China that is unable to develop without fetters? Has the USA not been the biggest consumer of Chinese products churned out by its burgeoning industries? I wonder if there's not a high level of hypocrisy there, paying lip service to a global cause while really doing the reverse.

Of course, the US has never really been that interested in Europe-level emissions cuts. In Kyoto we said "well the Indians and Chinese aren't doing anything, so we aren't either", which I think shows how weak the commitment was in the first place.

Lastly, there seems to be quite a significant number of skeptical laymen and pedestrian deniers in the West itself. If you can't 'get your house in order', how do you expect a country who is not as developed to follow suit?

And how do you expect a country run by corporate interests to actively work against those interests in the name of environmentalism? :undecide:

Because more linked articles is never a bad thing:

http://english.aljazeera.net/focus/climatesos/2009/12/2009122064859919604.html

Copenhagen: A lesson in geopolitics
By Joanna Kakissis

After two weeks of international deadlock and an all-night marathon negotiating session that produced a thin and toothless accord, the biggest climate talks in history devolved from "Hopenhagen" to "Nopenhagen".

The Copenhagen Accord - brokered at the last minute by Barack Obama, the US president, with China, India, Brazil and South Africa - did not receive universal support from the 193 countries participating in the climate summit.

The accord, which gutted a comprehensive agreement to pay poor countries to protect their forests, since the mass cutting of trees accounts for 20 per cent of global emissions, is not binding and does not have a set date for capping carbon emissions.

It provoked reactions from fury to despair.

Lumumba Stanislaus Dia-ping, Sudan's chief negotiator, compared it to the Holocaust, while Hugo Chavez, the Venezuelan president, referenced the sulfur of hell and suggested that Obama was Satan.

Ian Fry of Tuvalu, the drowning island-nation that has become the poster country for the perils of rising sea levels, likened the accord to "being offered 30 pieces of silver to betray our people and our future".

Global climate politics

But longtime observers of climate negotiations never expected a sweeping deal in Copenhagen, especially considering today's polarised and charged geopolitics. The rift between rich and poor countries remains wide, and the chasm paralysed the negotiations.

China and India, the developing world's rising economic powerhouses and sometimes adversaries, together opposed key elements such as the external monitoring of greenhouse gas emissions.

Wen Jiabao, the premier of China - the world's biggest emitter of CO2 gases - also snubbed 11th-hour meetings with Obama and other leaders, sending low-level aides instead.

Cleo Paskal, a fellow in the Energy, Environment and Development Programme at the British think tank Chatham House, says the world's changing political landscape is partly why even Obama's last-minute brokering did not produce something powerful.

"Climate change has become part of global politics," Paskal says. "There was a very high expectation from the West that a deal would be pushed through. But what's happened is a real wake-up call to how geopolitics has changed."

Environmental groups, developing nations such Venezuela and Cuba, and much of the European media criticised Obama for the deal.

"He formed a league of super-polluters, and would-be super-polluters," environmentalist and author Bill McKibben wrote in the American magazine Grist. "It is a coalition of foxes who will together govern the henhouse."

'Historic, if incomplete'

But, not everyone was critical of the deal.

An exhausted Ban Ki-moon, the UN secretary-general, told a press conference that he welcomed it as "an important beginning", while Carl Pope, the executive director of the US-based environmental organisation Sierra Club, released a statement calling it "a historic, if incomplete, agreement".

Meanwhile, Sheikh Hasina, the prime minister of the environmentally beleaguered Bangladesh, said in a speech that the accord was "a reasonable conclusion", and Jose Manuel Barroso, the president of the European Commission, acknowledged that producing nothing at all would have been disastrous.

"This accord is better than no accord, but clearly below our ambition," Barroso said at a 2am press conference on Saturday morning.

"Every leader who was there staked political capitol on being able to win," Paskal says.

"Now they're going to have to go back to their capitals and think long and hard on how future international negotiations will go."

'Climate reparations'

The Copenhagen Accord did have victories, including the first significant climate fund for poor nations. The accord promises to deliver $30bn of aid over the next three years and to raise $100mn in yearly climate financing for poor countries by 2020.

There is also a deal to help developing economies convert to green energy and low-emission fuels.

But the climate fund did not win the trust of all developing countries, some of whom say the money is not nearly enough.

Evo Morales, Bolivia's president, declared that rich countries owe poor countries billions of dollars in "climate reparations" and demanded the creation of a "climate change tribunal" for countries who do not stop polluting.

"That framing is never going to fly, at least in the US congress," says Geoff Dabelko, the director of the Environmental Change and Security Program at the Woodrow Wilson International Center for Scholars in Washington D.C.

"The question is whether these initial financial commitments are seen by developing countries as an incremental step that moves towards figures they see as sufficient."

The next opportunity for a treaty will be the 2010 UN climate conference in Mexico City. That may be an opportunity to solidify what did not happen in Copenhagen, though many of the same challenges will face leaders there.

In the US, for instance, the climate bill that would set targets for lower US emissions is stalled in the senate and may not make it out this year, since many American legislators are already weary from a vicious political fight to reform healthcare.

Regional focus

If there continues to be an international stalemate on a binding climate accord, countries may try to find regional ways to deal with carbon emissions as well as more immediate environmental issues, such as polluted water supplies, says Paskal of Chatham House.

She also says countries should consider sharing information and ideas on how to adapt to global warming-induced changes such as rising sea levels and more severe storms.

Poor countries like Bangladesh have innovated to handle the chronic floods and storms there but "if you have a flood on the US coast you get Katrina," Paskal says, referencing the 2005 hurricane that killed at least 1,836 people and displaced thousands, mainly in greater New Orleans.

"The developed world is going to suffer way more severe impacts than is being acknowledged," she says.

"For example, if Miami is hit by a category five hurricane, which is not unlikely, the implications will be staggering both economically and socially, and yet there are very few plans in place to deal with it.

"People think these are just problems for the developing world, but they're not. It's going to affect everyone."

Source: Al Jazeera
 
I have feared the rise of China for a long time. They pollute a lot and are going to pollute even more. They have a totally different mindset on politics. They have millions of very nationalistic young men. They have ambitions and their power is growing, at the expense of the environment. Not good I tell you.
 
I have feared the rise of China for a long time. They pollute a lot and are going to pollute even more. They have a totally different mindset on politics.

How is their mindset different from that of Western countries? Are you just talking about domestic politics? How is that relevant to this issue?

storealex said:
They have millions of very nationalistic young men.

Relevance?

storealex said:
They have ambitions and their power is growing, at the expense of the environment.

Again, how is that different from the story of Western countries?

storealex said:
Not good I tell you.

I can tell you as much, but it ain't only about China.
 
USA is more to blame for the failure. If it had joined the EU and Japan and if they together pressed China, it would have been more receptive to more profound CO2 reductions (in exchange for Western assistance, obviously).

As it appears, Obama sneaked out, signed a deal with some developing countries and thus essentially stabbed the EU in the back. Here's our reward for all the support we offered him :crazyeye:

EU representatives should have walked out and distance themselves from that farce; the next day they should have met again to decide the severity of new tariffs to be imposed against the main culprits.

But that would be too assertive, right? We must be look docile and harmless so that we can... achieve... what, exactly? :shake:
 
More talks in Mexico City 2010 of course!!!
 
Perhaps a different approach. The OECD nations could get together on their own and commit to binding limits. And then export those limits by coercion and bribe. LDCs that sign on get tech transfers, aid, and preferential trade deals. LDCs that do not sign on get tariffs to pay for it all.
 
USA is more to blame for the failure. If it had joined the EU and Japan and if they together pressed China, it would have been more receptive to more profound CO2 reductions (in exchange for Western assistance, obviously).

As it appears, Obama sneaked out, signed a deal with some developing countries and thus essentially stabbed the EU in the back. Here's our reward for all the support we offered him :crazyeye:

EU representatives should have walked out and distance themselves from that farce; the next day they should have met again to decide the severity of new tariffs to be imposed against the main culprits.

But that would be too assertive, right? We must be look docile and harmless so that we can... achieve... what, exactly? :shake:

I think your being unfair on Obama considering that any EU/Japan style Bill would be obliterated in the Senate and watered down to nothing. Anyway the USA isn't fooled by global warming - which demonstrates that some common sense is around. China obviously doesn't care about global warming it is just about getting more money from the West and pretending to use it to reduce emissions when it actually uses it for its nefarious plots to dominate the world. Anyway Tariffs against the USA would be counter-productive the USA would retaliate and put up their own and the consumers and the economies of both countries would suffer and would aggravate our (UKs) recession.
 
I think your being unfair on Obama considering that any EU/Japan style Bill would be obliterated in the Senate and watered down to nothing. Anyway the USA isn't fooled by global warming - which demonstrates that some common sense is around. China obviously doesn't care about global warming it is just about getting more money from the West and pretending to use it to reduce emissions when it actually uses it for its nefarious plots to dominate the world. Anyway Tariffs against the USA would be counter-productive the USA would retaliate and put up their own and the consumers and the economies of both countries would suffer and would aggravate our (UKs) recession.

IIRC the president signs treaties not the Senate

I think that the next conference should put tariffs on countries that fail to enact reductions so that the job outsourcing will be stemmed and even reversed, put your money where your mouth is
 
IIRC the president signs treaties not the Senate

I think that the next conference should put tariffs on countries that fail to enact reductions so that the job outsourcing will be stemmed and even reversed, put your money where your mouth is

Yeah the President signs up to treaties after it has been ratified by Congress and the Senate. Thats why Bill Clinton didn't bother to sign up to Kyoto because he couldn't get it though the house and FDR signed the Land-Lease agreement (I think it was this one) on a ship in international waters therefore out of US jurisdiction otherwise it would've been unconstituitonal.
 
Yeah the President signs up to treaties after it has been ratified by Congress and the Senate. Thats why Bill Clinton didn't bother to sign up to Kyoto because he couldn't get it though the house and FDR signed the Land-Lease agreement (I think it was this one) on a ship in international waters therefore out of US jurisdiction otherwise it would've been unconstituitonal.

err, I think you mean Lend-Lease Act? so they US would get lower Tariffs in exchange so it would be fair and then we can dodge the whole Senate matter
 
IIRC the president signs treaties not the Senate

I think that the next conference should put tariffs on countries that fail to enact reductions so that the job outsourcing will be stemmed and even reversed, put your money where your mouth is

The Senate has to give 2/3'ds consent for a treaty to become law. IIRC, Presidents can do executive orders that work as a treaty but they expire with the next President.
 
IIRC, China was in. Venezuela, Cuba, Bolivia and a couple others "ruined" the chance at a binding agreement. Sure, they're commie, but 2/3 not officially. Wanna-be commies ruined it. The real commies, China (and Russia :mischief:) were in.


Seriusly, what incentive does China have not to sign. They have all kinds of environmental regulations that go completely ignored (The new Costa Rica). Another one is not going to hurt their national pride. They'll keep choking on smog, destroying their rivers and abusing their people until someone calls BS on their paperwork.
 
Perhaps a different approach. The OECD nations could get together on their own and commit to binding limits. And then export those limits by coercion and bribe. LDCs that sign on get tech transfers, aid, and preferential trade deals. LDCs that do not sign on get tariffs to pay for it all.
That should have been the starting point for any sort of substantial changes in international environmental policy: The wealthy consumer countries have to get their arses up and be on the same page. Shift the demand curve -- in this case, in favor of more environmentally friendly products -- then see how the supply curve shifts accordingly. However, developing manufacturing countries do need access to environmental tech and management from wealthy countries, or they will simply follow the path of proven but dirty 19th-20th century path to industrialization. Perhaps more importantly, developing manufacturing countries need to get over with whining and sniveling at wealthy countries; which means their political culture has to change from blaming the West for their troubles. It takes two to tango together, both for the good as well as for the bad.
 
EU representatives should have walked out and distance themselves from that farce; the next day they should have met again to decide the severity of new tariffs to be imposed against the main culprits.

Close...

Perhaps a different approach. The OECD nations could get together on their own and commit to binding limits. And then export those limits by coercion and bribe. LDCs that sign on get tech transfers, aid, and preferential trade deals. LDCs that do not sign on get tariffs to pay for it all.

Bingo.

Here's the beautiful thing about China's manufacturing powerhouse: it depends vitally on the ability to export those products. A united front among the importing nations would do wonders.
 
Back
Top Bottom