You mean this one? Ok.
Let me ask you a simple question. How many times have you ever placed a suspect into the back seat of a car while they were handcuffed?
Please be honest.
4. Did you miss the part where I explained that I've trained cops?
Cops are trained to try and get suspects in cuffs into the back seat of a police cruiser without harming them. And that is a lot harder than you think. You typically don't do this while employing the 'leg lock' you mentioned for the simple reason the person in cuffs will probably lose their balance and face plant themselves into the car - and if they hit something hard or awkwardly, they could lose an eye, teeth, or even fracture their eye socket. That being the case, at the moment of putting someone in the car, its entirely possible for someone to get out of hand and do something like this woman did when she turned and kicked the cop in the face.
No, it's not. You obviously can't apply a leg lock on someone and keep them moving. At least, not unless you are considerably larger than them. You can, however, apply a shoulder-bar, with very little difficulty - it's hard to learn, easy to do once learnt - and propel them whereever the hell you want. Now, they could conceivably kick you in the shins when you are placing them in the backseat. That is all. There is absolutely no way that someone can kick you unless you release them, then stand there waiting for them to reposition themselves.
In other words its easy to armchair quarterback the situation, but another thing entirely when your in their shoes.
I've been in their shoes. There's plenty about policework that is hard, but placing an already handcuffed individual in a vehicle is not one of them. Not unless there is a considerable weight difference. If it had been Eric Garner that kicked an officer in the face while handcuffed, I might be on your side of this argument.
You're entitled to your opinion, but you need to realize not everyone sees things from a 'Brazilian jiujitsu instructor' perspective. As such, you can probably accomplish subduing holds that even most cops cant. Your average cop, let alone your average person, can still have problems in hobbling someone so they cant kick back at you. If you watch film of cops subduing a person, you will typically see a couple of cops using their entire bodies to get on top of the persons legs and hold them there. Its not like they try to put the perp in a figure 4 to have them tap out in submission.
I would certainly hope not, as a figure four is a professional wrestling move that is more painful to the person applying it than the person it applied to.
I understand that the average cop can't apply a gogoplata or rolling crucifix while remaining even-breathed enough to explain to a class what points this hold puts pressure on. I also do not pretend to know the exact training methods police receive in the US.
I do, however, know the methods taught in Australia, because I happen to have learnt Hapkido from the man who teaches them at the NSW Police Academy. And I can tell you that most police officers over here are both capable of learning, in a single lesson, the shoulder-bar technique I describe. I can also tell you that the vast majority of trainees ignore those lessons, in spite of the fact that the guy who teaches them has taught several Ultimate Fighters, including two World Heavyweight Championship competitors. The police apparatus over here is happy to have their officers do a sub-standard job, because they know that it will be those being arrested who are injured, and not their officers. It's disgusting. They also attempt to pressure him into teaching them chokeholds, which he refuses to do, as he doesn't want a bunch of dead police victims on his conscience.
Point being, just because you can be well trained doesn't mean things can go south on you and you get surprised. It happens.
Yes it does. I once got jumped by a drunk guy at a train station. I calmly performed a double-leg takedown and mounted him, only to have him escape the mount, pass my guard, and catch me in a back-mount. I ate two punches to the back of the head before I rolled through into a heel hook. It turned out the drunk guy had taken two Pankration classes three years previously, and picked that one time he got drunk and jumped a guy to remember everything he'd ever seen before. And if the police had punched
him in the face, I wouldn't be concerned, because he's a guy that could counter a shoulder-bar. In fact, he did; I applied one after snapping his ankle while waiting for the police, and the wily bastard rolled with the pressure and I had to take him back down and apply a kimura.
But a woman in handcuffs is not the bastard lovechild of Jet Li that I came across one night in Seven Hills. All she did was kick. An appropriate response was to lock up her legs. As I said, maybe the police in the US simply don't know how to do that properly. But punching someone in the face is
not the appropriate response. It increases the odds of the officer suffering a serious hand injury, for one thing; I teach people to throw forearms rather than punches for that reason.
But I stand by my comments about simply just grabbing someones legs to subdue them, especially trying to do it while putting someone into the back seat of a car. If you watch the film, she managed to turn on him as he was trying to get her into the car, and that's when she kicked him in the face.
Because he was doing a very bad job of placing her in the car.
Getting someone into a car while they are in cuffs can even be troublesome even when they aren't putting up a fight. I continually see allegations of police brutality just from someone being cuffed and placed into the back seat of a police cruiser because they got their wrist hurt or hit their head while doing it. Someone fighting you while trying to do it is practically a guarantee that someones going to get hurt in the process.
And I have zero sympathy with people who are injured in that manner. Though if someone is placed in a vehicle correctly, it is a shoulder injury that is most likely.
Actually, I was merely referring to the taser and/or pepper spray as tools a cop has in general, not necessarily specific to this circumstance.
Ah, fair enough.
But yeah, I've seen video of cops pepper spraying big guys in cuffs because they were tearing hell out of their squad car and trying to get to them in the enclosed space would be really problematic.
And I don't really see much of a difference in a wrist breaking from a hold, and the guy punching someone in the face. Both would be claimed to be the results of excessive force, even if, as you allege, 'that's [their] own dumb fault...'.
A wrist breakage from someone fighting a wristlock is obviously the person in the wristlock's fault. Unless the cop is taking them to the ground applying a full body scissors while doing so. The bigger the person being subdued, the more leeway I am prepared to give the police doing the subduing. Pepper spray seems like the sor of thing you'd save for one hell of a big guy though.
I've seen a person actually fracture their jaw from chewing food and biting down on a piece of gristle. Bone density does indeed vary from person to person and some are far more susceptible to bone fracture than others. That same punch to you or me probably wouldn't have given either of us a fracture.
I once saw a person break their leg kicking a soccer ball. A fractured eye socket from a punch to the face is not a weird injury. It's a very common injury. Now, if the punch to face had caused her to break her pelvis, you might have a point.
