Core Area Reform

[Hippo8085]

Under the new stability system, it is quite in later eras to control an empire containing many foreign and foreign core cities with only 2-3 core cities, assuming everything is at the correct population. This is OK. The problem arises when there are more cities than this in the core, and civilizations like Arabia and Mongolia are seemingly immortal, or when the cities of a civilization are almost all core, and a civilization like Byzantium stays alive well past its historical collapse date, even after losing its essential city.

Skip a couple long posts detailing proposals and move to the discussion on this page

As I mentioned in another post, the only surefire way for a civilization to collapse is to have all of its core cities eliminated, so if a civilization is supposed to collapse on a given schedule, its core should be either small or conquerable.

Below will be the list of civilizations, their current primary core (the one they spawn with), current secondary core with condition (if it changes), and flip zone (if different form primary). After will be proposed primary and secondary cores and different flip zones (if needed). If I am feeling ambitious I will also include screenshots illustrating each, though this will happen eventually. When it does, sorry for the giant pictures, not so much for the awkward ones.

Note: cores are defined in consts.py with coordinates for the Bottom left corner and the top right corner of a rectangle, with some exceptions. Funny, I just noticed they are all defined a little weird and that there are a bunch of redundant exceptions. TL means bottom left, BR means top right, and Ex means exceptions. In the coordinates larger x means further right/east, larger y further up/north. This is how I will list them. Since most of us, including me, cannot read coordinates into rectangles on the map, I am including the screenshots. If you would like, you may view coordinates through using cheat mode chipotle.

Egypt
Current primary core - TL: (66,30) BR: (70,36)

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China
Current primary core - TL: (99,43) BR: (107,47)

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Babylonia
Current primary core - TL: (75,38) BR: (77,42)

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Greece
Current primary core - TL: (65,39) BR: (70,45) Ex: (65,45), (66,45)

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India
Current primary core - TL: (87,36) BR: (96,40)

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Phoenicia
Current primary core - TL: (71,39) BR: (74,41)

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Current secondary core - TL: (54,37) BR: (60,39) Condition: palace built in Carthage

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Persia
Current primary core - TL: (79,37) BR: (85,44)

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Rome
Current primary core - TL: (59,41) BR: (63,47)

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Tamils
Current primary core - TL: (90,28) BR: (93,34) Ex: (90,33), (90,34), (91,34)

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Ethiopia
Current primary core - TL: (69,27) BR: (73,30)

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Korea
Current primary core - TL: (107,45) BR: (110,49)

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Maya
Current primary core - TL: (20,35) BR: (23,37)

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Byzantium
Current primary core - TL: (64,38) BR: (74,45)

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Japan
Current primary core - TL: (111,41) BR: (116,49)

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Vikings
Current primary core - TL: (58,56) BR: (64,62)

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Arabia
Current primary core - TL: (67,30) BR: (80,40) Ex: (73,40), (75,40), (71,36), (72,37), (67,30), (68,30), (69,30), (70,30), (71,30), (72,30), (72,31), (72,32), (71,32)

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Tibet
Current primary core - TL: (92,41) BR: (98,45) Ex: (98,42)

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Khmer
Current primary core - TL: (100,32) BR: (103,36)

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Indonesia
Current primary core - TL: (98,24) BR: (107,31) Ex: (100,31), (100,30), (101,29)

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Moors
Current primary core - TL: (51,37) BR: (58,43) Ex: (58,43), (58,42)

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[Hippo8085]

Spain
Current primary core - TL: (49,43) BR: (53,46) Ex: (49,43), (49,44), (50,43), (50,44)

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Current secondary core - TL: (49,40) BR: (55,46) Ex: (49,43), (49,44), (50,43), (50,44), (49,42), (50,42), (49,41), (55,46) Condition: Renaissance Era or later AND Moors not in Iberia

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France
Current primary core - TL: (51,46) BR: (57,52) Ex: (55,46), (57,46), (53,46), (52,46), (51,46), (57,46), (56,52), (57,52)

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England
Current primary core - TL: (50,53) BR: (54,60)

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Holy Rome
Current primary core - TL: (58,48) BR: (64,54) Ex: (64,51), (64,52), (64,53), (64,54)

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Current secondary core - TL: (61,47) BR: (66,50) Condition: Prussia has spawned

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Russia
Current primary core - TL: (67,50) BR: (74,58) Ex: (68,58), (69,58), (70,58)

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Mali
Current primary core - TL: (49,26) BR: (57,31)

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Poland
Current primary core - TL: (63,50) BR: (67,55) Ex: (63,50), (64,50)

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Portugal
Current primary core - TL: (44,42) BR: (50,44)

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Inca
Current primary core - TL: (26,20) BR: (29,24)

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Italy
Current primary core - TL: (58,45) BR: (63,47) Ex: (63,47), (63,46)

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Current secondary core - TL: (58,40) BR: (63,47) Ex: (63,47), (63,46) Condition: Industrial Era or later

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Mongols
Current primary core - TL: (87,46) BR: (105,58) Ex: (99,47), (100,47), (101,47), (102,47), (103,47), (99,46), (100,46), (101,46), (102,46), (103,46), (104,46)

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Aztecs
Current primary core - TL: (15,36) BR: (20,41)

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Mughals
Current primary core - TL: (86,38) BR: (91,43)

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Turkey
Current primary core - TL: (69,41) BR: (77,48) Ex: (73,41), (73,42), (71,42), (70,42), (74,42), (75,42)

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Current secondary core - TL: (68,43) BR: (77,48) Ex: (68,48) Condition: Constantinople is taken

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Thailand
Current primary core - TL: (100,32) BR: (103,36)

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Kongo
Current primary core - TL: (61,19) BR: (65,22)

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Iran
Current primary core - TL: (79,37) BR: (85,44)

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Netherlands
Current primary core - TL: (56,52) BR: (58,54)

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Prussia
Current primary core - TL: (58,49) BR: (66,55) Ex: (62,49), (62,50), (63,49), (63,50), (64,49), (64,50), (64,51), (65,49), (65,50), (65,51), (66,49), (66,50), (66,51), (58,52), (58,53), (62,51), (63,51), (64,53), (61,49), (61,50), (64,52), (58,54)

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America
Current primary core - TL: (25,43) BR: (32,50) Ex: (25,48), (25,49), (26,48), (27,49), (27,50), (28,50), (29,50), (30,50)

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Argentina
Current primary core - TL: (31,3) BR: (36,13) Ex: (35, 12), (35, 13), (36, 12), (36, 13)

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Mexico
Current primary core - TL: (12,34) BR: (23,43) Ex: (23,43), (23,42), (22,43), (21,43), (21,42), (20,43), (20,42), (20,41), (19,43), (19,42), (19,41), (19,40), (18,43), (22,35), (23,34)

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Colombia
Current primary core - TL: (25,27) BR: (29,32)

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Brazil
Current primary core - TL: (36,14) BR: (43,27)

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[Hippo8085]

I will use this post for a list of proposed changes.

citis on just about everything (4)
Hippo8085 on Arabia and Mongolia (19)
Hippo8085 on Byzantium and Japan (30)
Hippo8085 on Egypt, India, Mali, Argentina, Brazil, Mexico, and Colombia (37)
Hippo8085 on Aztecs, Prussia, and Russia (51)
Hippo8085 on Babylonia, Greece, Vikings, Moors, Turkey, and America (69)

 

[citis]

There was a historical instability in the game, but it seems Leoreth removed it, causing these results. I can't understand coordinate notation, but these are my proposals:

*Ethiopia: Exclude the core tiles of Egypt. Make them historical instead. Seeing Egyptian core cities flipping to Ethiopia isn't right.
*Arabia: Push the core out of Africa and Mesopotamia. There is no need for so vast core. Moreover, Mecca and Jerusalem will guarantee they won't die easily. Core may include Arabian peninsula, Jerusalem
*India: Exclude all of Deccan
*Mongolia: The current system seems OK. They collapse at about 1500AD, which is pretty historical. Just a little smaller core to avoid human exploitation.

Spoiler :

Changes:
*No overlap (see the note).
*Buhen is attributed solely to Ethiopians.
*Arabian core is limited to Arabian Peninsula and Jerusalem (excluded Egypt and Mesopotamia)
*Byzantine and greek cores are identical. (mutual exclusion)

Don't mind the overlaping of Phoenician core. Their core immigrate to Maghreb after the founding of Carthage.

Changes:
*No core overlap
*Limiting Indian core to Ganges, excluded a part of Deccan and Pakistan.
*There is an overlap of Mughal core with Indian core. When Mughals enter industrial age Delhi is attributed solely to Indians.

Changes:
*Mongol core cut at half, but still flips all cities like before. (Excludes human exploitation).

Changes:
*No overlap.
*HRE is attributed Austria and Hungary.
*Poland is attributed half the baltics.
*Prussia flip reduced just to Konisberg.

 

[Leoreth]

There was a historical instability in the game, but it seems Leoreth removed it, causing these results.

No, you claimed that something exists which never existed, and I corrected you.

 

[DC123456789]

Why does Prussia's core include Warsaw anyway? In my opinion the eastern portion should be restricted to the tiles N and W of Konigsberg (including Konigsberg itself)- basically what Prussia controls in the screenshot.

 

[Leoreth]

Okay, had the time to review your proposals now. It's very helpful to see them on the actual map. I think you are too conservative with overlaps though. Because of the 80% rule it is necessary in some cases to make sure the first ring of some cities isn't suffocated by someone's core culture. A good example is Tyre.

I agree that core areas have to be reviewed though.

 

[Hippo8085]

Why does Prussia's core include Warsaw anyway? In my opinion the eastern portion should be restricted to the tiles N and W of Konigsberg (including Konigsberg itself)- basically what Prussia controls in the screenshot.

My guess is that it is one of the leftovers from when Europe did not have an extra line of tiles on it. That is part of why I am showing all of the current ones - so that cores which most would have no idea have stuff like that and say they are fine can be discovered.

You will see some of my proposals soon, along with a few more proposed changing ones. Right now I am working my computer pretty hard to get pictures of all of the current ones and then I will move a little over half down into the second post.

 

[The Diocletian]

No, you claimed that something exists which never existed, and I corrected you.

In the old stability system, there were penalties for ancient civilizations at appropriate times to help the game move along at a reasonably historical pace. Perhaps that is what Citis is referring to?

 

[VGL]

Iran
Current primary core - TL: BR:

Spoiler :

Why Tabriz isn't in the core?

 

[Leoreth]

The maps are really useful. Only now I realize what's going on with Prussia, that's definitely a mistake.

 

[citis]

No, you claimed that something exists which never existed, and I corrected you.

I remember reading its code in stability.py, but it was many commits before.

EDIT:

In the old stability system, there were penalties for ancient civilizations at appropriate times to help the game move along at a reasonably historical pace. Perhaps that is what Citis is referring to?

So it was the old stability system. I remember that every ten years (years, not turns) the outdated AI civs got a-1 stability hit. After 100 years, they got -10 stability hit.

 

[fabe]

The maps are really useful. Only now I realize what's going on with Prussia, that's definitely a mistake.

There are too much tiles in the East, yeah. But I think you should include Bavaria (even though I do like to refer to them as non-Germans)...which on the other hand would probably mess with Wien

 

[DC123456789]

I think we're all in agreement in that Mongolia's core should be severely nerfed (i.e. remove the northern half) and Arabia's core as well (i.e. remove Egypt)?

 

[Leoreth]

I think we're all in agreement in that Mongolia's core should be severely nerfed (i.e. remove the northern half) and Arabia's core as well (i.e. remove Egypt)?

Yes. Generally I think under the new mechanics the core = flip zone identity has become untenable.

 

[Hojsimpson]

Mongolia flip cities 1 west of the Urals. Is this core for the AI?
TL=BL BR=TR

 

[Hippo8085]

TL=BL BR=TR

If this is talking about my notation, then yeah, I know. The reason I am using this is because that is how it is defined in the code, which (theoretically) should make it slightly easier to do after all is said.

I am sure that it would be preferable to have as few exceptions as possible in the new cores... if we are shrinking them that should not be a problem.

One thing I would like to point out is that civilizations with historical collapses (Mongolia, for game-play purposes Arabia, etc.) need to have cores which are somewhat easily conquerable, since this is the only way to "quick-collapse" a civilization.

With my suggestions I am going to assume a return to Current Era +2 modifiers because under the +1 modifiers many small civilizations (including Europe) are almost constantly in city-revolt mode, which weakens them enough to be somewhat irrelevant.

 

[Leoreth]

Yes, the notation from the code doesn't make sense when looking at the map. It is slightly more sensible if you consider that the (0,0) coordinate is at the top left of the map.

 

[Hippo8085]

Yes, the notation from the code doesn't make sense when looking at the map. It is slightly more sensible if you consider that the (0,0) coordinate is at the top left of the map.

Except it isn't , strangely enough I messed that one up the first time I was doing something to an RFC mod, I think SoI. Also, don't blame Leoreth for the notation, it has been around since RFC.

Okay, now for my first two suggestions on the civilizations I feel are the largest problems, Arabia and Mongolia, both with changing cores because I feel it is appropriate for them.

Arabia
Primary Core - TL: (73, 30) BR: (76, 38)
Secondary Core - TL: (73, 38) BR: (78, 42) Condition: Philosophy is researched

Spoiler :

Reasoning: The primary contains Makkah, which represents Islam, and Jerusalem, which represents power over the region. Sana'a gives enough population to keep stable with its fish.
The secondary is triggered at Philosophy because it is required to build La Mezquita, which shows the shift of the Umayyad dynasty to Spain and the area the secondary core covers becoming the center of the Islamic world.
Game-play-wise, population of Baghdad replaces that of Makkah and Damascus should be more than Sana'a, so the shift also stabilizes Arabia. The Seljuks are not strained to conquer the area and so can collapse or severely weaken Arabia, leaving the doors more open for Turkey to reign, which is the intended purpose of the Seljuks.

Mongolia
Primary Core - TL: (95, 47) BR: (105, 52) Ex: (102, 47), (103, 47)
Secondary Core - TL: (95, 46) BR: (106, 49) Condition: China dead or vassal

Spoiler :

Reasoning: Both look big, but are realistically only 3 cities. On the primary I allowed 1 tile north of Qara Qoorum such that human may settle along the lake and be initially more stable.
The secondary shifts into more of a Yuan Empire type Mongols, which would be the AI's dynamic name under the given conditions, and provides a bit of extra core population without being excessive. One could take out Dunhuang if it turns out to be too big. Ideally China respawns taking Khanbaliq/Beijing and only needs to take 1 or 2 cities to kill Mongolia.

 

[Leoreth]

Except it isn't

Oh haha you're right, never mind.