Corporal Punishment in Schools

[Japanrocks12]

Meaning it's much more effective to threaten to take away their toys, their meals, and their grade in the class than it is to hit them.

 

[MobBoss]

Or harsh language will be seen as being 'psychologically traumatizing'. How dare you tell Jimmy he's been bad...your're scarring him for life!!!

Seriously, how is a parent supposed to parent if the state takes all the tools to be an effective parent away?

 

[Tani Coyote]

I suppose a bit of background could help.

We have lived a fairly good lifestyle this past decade thanks to my father giving up his regional manager position and forming his own company.

Spanking and time outs were the worst punishments we ever faced, and spanking was very rarely used and only in our youth. Often, fear was the primary punishment; we all feared the anger of our mother when we misbehaved. Fear of our father? While he's excellent at giving it when he snaps(VERY rare, you have to be downright disrespectful), mother has the primary position of disciplinarian.

I was once chased by my father up the stairs for mouthing off to him. I hid with my mother, and I learned my lesson. My brother likewise was chased out of the house by him when he was younger for disrespect. My sister, she was simply dragged up the stairs to her room by him.

Sure, it may seem "abusive" but we deserved this in EVERY situation, so "abusive" status can quite frankly go elsewhere. I love my parents dearly, and they love us too. They are good people, and quite frankly, I'd be more scarred if I was taken away from them than anything else.

Now, we do have problems accepting discipline since we're not used to it. We never really had to do chores, and when my father tried to lock the fridge, I was quick to break it open. Now, some parents say they would do x to their kids for that... well, I'm glad I'm not your son! Besides, I ended up doing what the fridge was locked for anyway, so it's a moot point.

Meaning it's much more effective to threaten to take away their toys,

That is a very effective tool indeed; my sister would be crippled without her car or phone so she's been getting very good at accepting the restrictions on her.

Likewise, I have nothing without my computer, so that threat tends to be useful.

their meals,

Some conservatives argue it's fine to deprive a child of supper, but I wholeheartedly disagree. It is sick to not give a child the three meals a day they should have when you are fully able to. Unless you're in the poorhouse and can't afford it, either give them three meals or give the kid away(or have it taken away from you).

and their grade in the class than it is to hit them.

That's a great threat provided the parent cares about education(such as the way my mother does), but unfortunately, not all parents care.

 

[MobBoss]

Meaning it's much more effective to threaten to take away their toys, their meals, and their grade in the class than it is to hit them.

Now wait a second....you'd starve a kid? Isnt that torture?

But to make a point here....what you suggest really depends on the kid. Some kids that stuff might work on....others could give a crap if you tried it.

Kids arent little cookie cutter versions of each other. They are vastly different and what works on one may not necessarily work on another. My three daughters are classic in this example. My oldest all it took was really a comment that her behavior was disappointing in order to get her attention. My 2nd daughter nothing negative worked; harsh language, spankings, time outs - none of it worked. The only thing that worked was positive reinforcement via rewards - i.e. if you do this you get that kind of thing, and even then results were mixed. My youngest daughter the most effective thing was spanking, and we didnt even have to resort to that very often, but none of the other stuff worked on her that well at all.

All 3 were different, and all 3 needed to be parented in slightly different ways. And thats for kids in the exact same environment as each other. Now add a classroom of kids, 30 or more, from all kinds of different family situations. Why would you expect all of them to react the exact same to certain discipline methods?

 

[Tani Coyote]

Now wait a second....you'd starve a kid? Isnt that torture?

Indeed! That would strike mas far more abusive than any spanking, and irresponsible on the part of a parent.

But to make a point here....what you suggest really depends on the kid. Some kids that stuff might work on....others could give a crap if you tried it.

Kids arent little cookie cutter versions of each other. They are vastly different and what works on one may not necessarily work on another. My three daughters are classic in this example. My oldest all it took was really a comment that her behavior was disappointing in order to get her attention. My 2nd daughter nothing negative worked; harsh language, spankings, time outs - none of it worked. The only thing that worked was positive reinforcement via rewards - i.e. if you do this you get that kind of thing, and even then results were mixed. My youngest daughter the most effective thing was spanking, and we didnt even have to resort to that very often, but none of the other stuff worked on her that well at all.

All 3 were different, and all 3 needed to be parented in slightly different ways. And thats for kids in the exact same environment as each other. Now add a classroom of kids, 30 or more, from all kinds of different family situations. Why would you expect all of them to react the exact same to certain discipline methods?

All excellent points. Punishment works well on some, doesn't work at all on others. Just don't let the kids get wise to the different treatment, or they'll start inquiring about the double or triple standard...

I think we turned out mostly fine with sparing punishment and plenty of reward. So long as there is actual love in the relationship, quite a good deal of punishment can be excused.

 

[Japanrocks12]

I think there are enough different non-violent methods (yes, I would threaten to starve a kid for a serious offense. If it didn't work the first or second time, I wouldn't do it again) to cover the vast majority of misbehaving kids.

I suppose that I should introduce another crucial element to my philosophy of how to treat kids: all authority should be questioned. A little bit of defiance is fairly normal for the vast majority of people. It's only the serial trollish "misbehaving for the sake of misbehaving" kid whom I would try to seriously discipline.

 

[MobBoss]

Heh, just speaking as a parent....if your're teaching your kid that all authority must be questioned, you deserve what you get.

 

[Tani Coyote]

I think there are enough different non-violent methods (yes, I would threaten to starve a kid. If it didn't work the first or second time, I wouldn't do it again)

I suppose that's different then. The threat is often just as powerful as the action. Psychological gaming, after all.

I suppose that I should introduce another crucial element to my philosophy of how to treat kids: all authority should be questioned.

This actually is a good principle to teach, and it makes sense. Government, Church, Parents... none are infallible, as much as we look up to them.

Of course, you don't want to run the point home too much, or you will get kids who are rebellious for the sake of being rebellious, misinterpreting "authority should be questioned" as "authority should be defied."

A little bit of defiance is fairly normal for the vast majority of people. It's only the serial trollish "misbehaving for the sake of misbehaving" kid whom I would try to seriously discipline.

So would you be against light physical punishment if all else failed?

 

[Japanrocks12]

So would you be against light physical punishment if all else failed?

Yes. I would probably give up.

 

[Tani Coyote]

Yes. I would probably give up.

So you'd just let the child run amock without any attempt at reprimanding them?

Honestly, sealing them in a part of the house sounds like the best option. (of course, the part should be comfortable; this limits the destruction they can cause without depriving them)

That or maybe adoption and wishing the next parent luck.

 

[Japanrocks12]

No, I said I would try a variety of non-violent things, and then I would give up. Time changes people anyway, hopefully for the better.

EDIT: In case you're doubting how creative you can get with non-violence, listen to this. One of my friends grew up in a rural pro-gun household and his mama once made him shoot a rabbit to kill and eat for dinner. When he refused, she did it herself. I think the act of that broke him far more effectively than any spanking that she could administer could.

Buff guys who aspire to be dads, give your kids a stern look and jerk toward them suddenly when they do something seriously wrong.

DOUBLE EDIT: I'm on a roll here. If your kid keeps wasting food at the dinner table, make it a point to take them to the part of town where there are homeless people who typically don't have enough to eat.

 

[Gigaz]

Now your comparing spanking to rape in terms of psychological trauma?

Please. Just stop. The two simply arent comparable in any way, shape or form.

You are wrong about that.

I never ever got a spanking (or gave one) without absolutely knowing wth I was getting one for. I knew I did wrong, and this was the ramification of my own behavior. I never, ever, EVER held it against someone (teacher or parent) that spanked me for the simple reason I never got a spanking I didnt deserve.

Thats not to say some kids do get spankings they dont deserve. Of course they do. But in those cases, those are parents that are 'doing it wrong', not because spanking is wrong.

You sound to me like an Afghan wive: "My husband only beats me when I deserve it". What do you mean here when you say "you have deserved it"? You can't be held accountable for your actions when you are a child, you can not deserve anything. If you would not consider spanking an acceptable method to teach a child, you would never claim that you deserved it but instead claim the opposite.

 

[Tani Coyote]

In case you're doubting how creative you can get with non-violence, listen to this. One of my friends grew up in a rural pro-gun household and his mama once made him shoot a rabbit to kill and eat for dinner. When he refused, she did it herself. I think the act of that broke him far more effectively than any spanking that she could administer could.

My brother once shot and killed a bird with a BB gun, but after he did it, he broke down crying.

Sometimes, your own emotional state will discipline you without interference. You do something and then your brain will actually tell you what you did was wrong.

Perhaps people are fundamentally good after all...

Buff guys who aspire to be dads, give your kids a stern look and jerk toward them suddenly when they do something seriously wrong.

Fear is indeed a great teacher in and of itself; my parents' punishment doctrine is almost entirely fear, and it works. Getting yelled at is horrid!

 

[Orka]

So you'd just let the child run amock without any attempt at reprimanding them?

Well, if it really is a loving relationship, then the sight of their depressed, forlorn parent should instill guilt in a child, which is quite effective. My parents never really 'punished' me. They were more of the love & reason types. They may have threatened to take away my computer, slash my allowance, etc... but if I remained strident and unyielding, they never acted upon those threats; they simply collapsed in despair. In the end, I could not live with their disappointment, and would inevitably compromise or make it up to them somehow. Of course, this guilt only works if the child is taught empathy/caring for others in the first place.

 

[GhostWriter16]

Some conservatives argue it's fine to deprive a child of supper, but I wholeheartedly disagree. It is sick to not give a child the three meals a day they should have when you are fully able to. Unless you're in the poorhouse and can't afford it, either give them three meals or give the kid away(or have it taken away from you).

\

I'm OK with "Go to bed without your supper" especially if the kid is complaining about food and whatnot.

But, any longer term than that and I don't like it...

 

[Tani Coyote]

Well, if it really is a loving relationship, then the sight of their depressed, forlorn parent should instill guilt in a child, which is quite effective. My parents never really 'punished' me. They were more of the love & reason types. They may have threatened to take away my computer, slash my allowance, etc... but if I remained strident and unyielding, they never acted upon those threats; they simply collapsed in despair. In the end, I could not live with their disappointment, and would inevitably compromise or make it up to them somehow. Of course, this guilt only works if the child is taught empathy/caring for others in the first place.

Which any good parent should teach their child anyway.

Our parents raised us to be ambitious and maybe even a bit greedy, but at the same time, to not become so wrapped up in these qualities we forgot basic human emotion.

\

I'm OK with "Go to bed without your supper" especially if the kid is complaining about food and whatnot.

But, any longer term than that and I don't like it...

That's different; the kid doesn't want to eat your gruel. So be it.

Forceful deprivation, however, doesn't sit right withme.

 

[MobBoss]

Yes. I would probably give up.

Not really an option as a parent.

 

[Grisu]

these days, I don't mind that much if other parents employ corporal punishment in moderation (though I still believe that it's a bad and ineffective parenting tool).

But if I ever find out that a teacher/school uses such methods on my kids, there will be hell to pay for those involved.

 

[CELTICEMPIRE]

I live in Kentucky, where it's legal, but almost never enforced.

 

[NovaKart]

Yeah I grew up in Lexington and never heard of anyone getting paddled there in my lifetime and I'm like twice the age of celticempire.

In my parents time it was common. They also had some really weird teachers, like my Dad had a teacher who was an alcoholic and kept whiskey in her desk. She would just throw whatever was in her hand at a student who acted up, like a book or the board eraser or whatever (probably not the bottle of whiskey though, I imagine she only took that out on the down low).