Corporal Punishment in Schools

[MobBoss]

Corporal Punishment was fairly common where I taught in Louisiana, and I know Fifty saw it being used in Mississippi. I refused to take part in it, since I knew if I started hitting kids, I would start hitting kids HARD, but my students came to expect it, and had trouble responding to other discipline types.

Nobody paddles rich white kids, only poor black kids.

Never say 'nobody' 'cause when I was a kid, the 'rich white kids' got it right alongside everyone else.

I got paddled in school as a kid. Didnt scar me for life.

I think it occurs to me that the consequences, both good and bad, of paddling are probably overstated. It doesnt ruin people, but there are kids that its not effective on. Kids absolutely need consistent effective discipline in order to keep them in order. Without order, they wont learn. If they dont learn, then our teaching system has failed.

The real problem isnt the paddling, its parents totally unwilling to parent their kids.

 

[civ_king]

Corporal Punishment was fairly common where I taught in Louisiana, and I know Fifty saw it being used in Mississippi. I refused to take part in it, since I knew if I started hitting kids, I would start hitting kids HARD, but my students came to expect it, and had trouble responding to other discipline types.

Nobody paddles rich white kids, only poor black kids.

My father went to Justin Sienna which is fairly wealthy and kids got paddled based on their transgression, plenty of rich white kids got paddled.

 

[Truronian]

"If someone does something you don't like, hit them" is not a lesson we should be teaching kids in school or at home.

 

[ParadigmShifter]

If they dont learn, then our teachering system has failed.

Indeed.

 

[downtown]

I'm sorry, I meant "currently". Paddling was pretty common everywhere a generation or two ago.

 

[MobBoss]

"If someone does something you don't like, hit them" is not a lesson we should be teaching kids in school or at home.

I agree. However, spanking isnt what this teaches, unless you do it horribly wrong, and then its no longer considering spanking.

 

[_random_]

I agree. However, spanking isnt what this teaches, unless you do it horribly wrong, and then its no longer considering spanking.

What exactly does spanking teach?

 

[MobBoss]

What exactly does spanking teach?

Right from wrong and the consequences of your actions.

Its a parental tool. Not the only one in the box, nor should it be the one most used, but its still a tool. And for some children it works very well, and for others less so. A good parent uses what works for their particular child.

 

[civ_king]

"If someone does something you don't like, hit them" is not a lesson we should be teaching kids in school or at home.

If this is the lesson beaten into them you're doing it wrong

 

[Truronian]

I agree. However, spanking isnt what this teaches, unless you do it horribly wrong, and then its no longer considering spanking.

Research suggests otherwise. Children, particularly young children, learn by mimicry and copying. Teachers are supposed to be role models for children, figures upon which pupils can base their behavior and actions. If teachers hit kids then some kids will hit their peers as they saw the teacher do it. This is what the research suggests.

 

[Orka]

I'm pretty sure research shows violence is not the answer. Obviously not everyone is scarred for life if they're beaten a few times, but on average it's just worse than other disciplinary methods. In my experience, spanking/hitting usually turns out too severe (the punishment exceeds the crime) and just makes kids more fearful and secretive.

 

[MobBoss]

Research suggests otherwise. Children, particularly young children, learn by mimicry and copying. Teachers are supposed to be role models for children, figures upon which pupils can base their behavior and actions. If teachers hit kids then some kids will hit their peers as they saw the teacher do it. This is what the research suggests.

Lets not misinterpret results. For example, in the first study, the childs propensity of violence (and level of CP) goes up with other factors like parental alcohol/drug use, age/education of parent, and even frequency of CP. Like I said earlier, CP doesnt work for all kids, but if a parent is insistent on using CP in a situation where its not working, of course the issue is with the parent (not being able to parent effectively), not CP in-of-itself.

Also, I'm not sure why mother's were only included in that study, and there could very well be something in regards a mother, who is traditionally supposed to be seen as the nurturer, spanking a kid as opposed to a father being the disciplinarian. Also, its not surprising to me that more than 2/3rds of the women in that study weren't married, and I again humbly submit that 'fragile families' are already broken in nature, and the childs agression could result of a myriad of reasons also associated with the dysfunction of said family.

I think your studies simply show a great number of parents discipline their kids wrong, not necessarily that CP itself is wrong.

 

[Camikaze]

Right from wrong and the consequences of your actions.

Its a parental tool. Not the only one in the box, nor should it be the one most used, but its still a tool. And for some children it works very well, and for others less so. A good parent uses what works for their particular child.

That is what it is intended to teach, but does it actually teach that? Does resorting to violence allow a child to recognise the problem, or just cloud the issue? Even if you are successfully explaining the problem that has led to you spanking a child to them, doesn't it come across as, 'you did something bad, and the solution to this is a spanking'? How do you convey the nuance between restitution and punishment? And then is the child actually learning from this? Will they be able to infer what is 'right' and what is 'wrong', or will they simply be able to infer what results in them getting hit and what does not?

How do you make sure you're 'doing it right'?

 

[SS-18 ICBM]

For example, in the first study, the childs propensity of violence (and level of CP) goes up with other factors like parental alcohol/drug use, age/education of parent, and even frequency of CP.

One of those can be controlled within the school. You have one guess.

Also, I'm not sure why mother's were only included in that study, and there could very well be something in regards a mother, who is traditionally supposed to be seen as the nurturer, spanking a kid as opposed to a father being the disciplinarian.

And I would hope in the US that teachers are not seen as disciplinarians first and instructors second.

Also, its not surprising to me that more than 2/3rds of the women in that study weren't married, and I again humbly submit that 'fragile families' are already broken in nature, and the childs agression could result of a myriad of reasons also associated with the dysfunction of said family.

And I think you'll find the phrase "even with controlling for [...] aforementioned confounding factors and key demographic features" quite illuminating.

 

[MobBoss]

That is what it is intended to teach, but does it actually teach that? Does resorting to violence allow a child to recognise the problem, or just cloud the issue? Even if you are successfully explaining the problem that has led to you spanking a child to them, doesn't it come across as, 'you did something bad, and the solution to this is a spanking'? How do you convey the nuance between restitution and punishment? And then is the child actually learning from this? Will they be able to infer what is 'right' and what is 'wrong', or will they simply be able to infer what results in them getting hit and what does not?

How do you make sure you're 'doing it right'?

It does indeed teach that if you do it right, and recognize that its either an effective tool for your child or not. I never, ever spanked my children in anger, nor excessively, and each and every time I did spank them it was usually the last resort, and I never did it without first explaining them precisely the reasons why we had both come to that point. Nor should the spanking be violent per se - the point is to draw attention to the behavior in question, not scar your child.

The problem with your 'surveys' is they will certainly be inclusive of highly dysfunctional families that engage in the full range of terrible parental decisions being made. Odds are in those situations you could take spanking entirely out of the equation and you would still end up with kids having anger issues.

And I would hope in the US that teachers are not seen as disciplinarians first and instructors second.

Although CP was used in my school when I was a kid, teachers were always seen as instructors first. Part of that could be how they implemented CP. The teachers didnt spank the kids. If something occurred, they called one of the football coaches, and those were the ones that dispensed 'justice' once approved by the Principle.

 

[classical_hero]

There are other ways of punishment.
You do not know what you teach the child if it does not fully understand the situation. My father was beaten by my grandfather in his early childhood and this got him a psychological trauma, which made him unable to acknowledge his own fears.

You are conflating a beating as in abuse with punishment. Their is a difference between punishing a child for doing wrong and just beating a child for the sake of it. If you are not teaching your children that this little pain is better than the potential consequences latter on in life. Beating your child just for the sake of is not punishment it is you taking your anger out on them, a span on the bottom should never be done out of anger.

 

[GhostWriter16]

I'm not a big fan of corporal punishment in school, because generally the spanking exists alone, as a control tool.

I support corporal punishment at home because the parent will (Hopefully, but if they don't, spanking isn't the problem) also include instruction in the discipline, and a spanking sometimes has an effect that nothing else will.

 

[Tani Coyote]

How seriously should the child misbehave before you resort to spanking? Shoplifting? Making a scene? Spilling water? Simply annoying the parent?

Simple annoyance - well you asked for this when you became a parent in my opinion. So the parent needs to just reap what they have sown.

Spilling water - accidents happen. Good lord who would punish a child for this?

Making a scene - I'd put them in time out.

Shoplifting - Spanking is worth it here! Get the point across that when they're older, going to prison will result in something far worse than a spanking. Do NOT break the law.

Yes. My point is spanking should classify as excessive punishment.

I suppose we'll have to agree to disagree; I don't exactly agree with the idea that a few swats on the rump is considered to be on par with punching, kicking, and terrifying a child you are supposed to love.

Then again, I am biased because we were all spanked yet turned out mostly okay. We have our defects but who doesn't. At least we're not mauling people.

Unfortunately restraint is something humans are not very good at when frustrated or angry, especially if violence is involved, whether you are the one on the receiving end or the one inflicting violence.

If you can't restrain yourself in a position of authority, you shouldn't have the position, I feel.

Scientifically speaking, positive reinforcement is the most effective intervention at generating the desired behavior in an individual. Not only is positive punishment (e.g. electric shocks, beatings, what have you) less effective, but it's also been demonstrated to have significant adverse effects, such as learned helplessness, when used repeatedly.

So, yes, animals do understand pain. But they understand other methods better, with less risk of harming their overall ability to function.

Can't an argument be made in favor of the fact that if they engage in certain behavior, they will endure pain FAR worse than what the spanking causes? It's a nice point to run home: activities such as not watching what you say or what you do will often result in a world of hurt, or even death.

 

[civ_king]

The belt or paddle is better than the hand, the child might associate pain with the hand which is not good at all

 

[Save_Ferris]

No, and I had no idea it was used in my state. Good thing I never went to a school that had it.

And for which ages are we talking about? A teacher spanking a 12-year old seems, well, weird.