Cost of Living

[Zardnaar]

A while ago I got called racist due to banging on about immigration. Note I'm not opposed to immigration more mass immigration. This is because of the impact it's had on house prices.

Anyway they interviewed some immigrants.

Note read this first if you want to argue.

https://i.stuff.co.nz/travel/kiwi-t...grants-struggling-with-aotearoas-living-costs

Note a person here was stupid moving here with $7000.

Now I have some American friends here. I did some research here on Saturday night with then then almost 3 in the morning.

Wine in a can pure class. And the mighty Baltika 9.

Now on paper much like Russian tanks NZ is great. As per usual the devil is in the details with wealth distribution. The average wage only 30% get it. The median wage is a lot lower than that and minimum wage is around 35-40k a year. To convert to USD multiply by 0.6.

Here's my local house prices.

My area 400k+. My American mates parents house on Saturday was 800k+.

Note I live in the cheapest city in the country. The party wasin a nice house in one of the worst suburbs. My house is not as nice but is worth double that one.

So daddy's kids from one of the best suburbs is living in our worst suburb. It's not that bad we don't have slums here but yeah it's far away, state housing, a bit run down. One of his sister's room mates mum and dad own the place and their rent is a lot cheaper than market rates.

When we first met in 2010 we lived in a dump but had saved a 20% deposit, 2019 and we have 4k left on the mortgage.

His sister and himself have been priced out of the market. She's 23 and engaged, he's 27 from well off families.

Long story short don't come here without several hundred thousand dollars minimum. If you want to live in Auckland bump that up to 500k to a million. Even then be an engineer or something or go work on a farm.

You want a large deposit on a house if not buy it outright.Teachers, nurses start on something close to the average wage. Taxes are kind of high, wages are low, cost if living is high, sales tax of 15% on everything.

NZ did a few things wrong in the 80s and 90s and here we are. It's great here lifestyle wise- if you have the money and gentrification is a thing now.

Anyway how is cost if living in your part of the world relative to wages etc? I know Seattle and London are bad. If I hadn't met my wife all those years ago I probably would have left 2006 to Australia or looked at white monkey job in China, Gulf states etc.

 

[dusters]

Here in Latvia you have to pay about 350 euro for 2 room flat, then food is about 300 euro a month, daily expenses add up to like 15 euro, which in the end is like 1100 netto. So wage has to be like 1800 euros to cover all that or you have to eat/work/live together with someone who throws some resources in.

Average wage in Latvija is about 1000, so for a comfortable living you need to be upper class or move to countryside where you can live cheaper, but then your education and job prospects are much worse.

1.5million country has it's cons.

 

[Zardnaar]

Here in Latvia you have to pay about 350 euro for 2 room flat, then food is about 300 euro a month, daily expenses add up to like 15 euro, which in the end is like 1100 netto. So wage has to be like 1800 euros to cover all that or you have to eat/work/live together with someone who throws some resources in.

Average wage in Latvija is about 1000, so for a comfortable living you need to be upper class or move to countryside where you can live cheaper, but then your education and job prospects are much worse.

1.5million country has it's cons.

350 is a month?

 

[dusters]

yes, it is really "that" cheap compared to Uk.

 

[Josu]

Where I llive, most people live in flats.
Average apartment price is about 3000€/m2, taxes not included. Taxes are 10% for new houses and 4% for second hand ones.
In 1994 the average price for m2 was about 1000€

Obviously flat sizes oscilate, in my building they are between 70m2 and 100m2.
So current prices in my building are between 210k and 300k, taxes not included. It is an average neiborhood, I mean it is not the most expensive, neither the cheaper.

The average salary is about 28k before taxes. Right now I am not being able to find the info, but most frequent salary is far from this 28k.
In 1994 the average salary was about 17k.

So the house prices have triplicate, salarys obviously, don't

In the late 70's my father in law was able to buy two flats in cash (one for him, another one for his parents), he was a worker having a nice salary, my mother did not work outside home. I am not using my parents as example because they both work (it was unusual in the 70s), we were 7 people living at home, so our house was bigger than usual.

Nowadays I work, my wife works and we had to ask for a mortgage, we will be paying our house the next 20 years

 

[Zardnaar]

yes, it is really "that" cheap compared to Uk.

Dammit my Euro to USD to NZD head conversion is down.

Using my app that's around $600 NZD a month. $600 NZD is approx 342 Euros.

That's about what you would pay for a 1 room in a house in my city.

My friend from Jordan is paying $450 a week so $1800 a month.

That's our cheap city.

 

[MaryKB]

I looked up on usatoday.com, and in Michigan a dollar is worth $1.07 compared to the national average, so my cost of living is cheaper here than other states My household gross income, combined with my husband, is $160 thousand. My net income each pay is roughly $2200, and my husband's is $1800 ... but I'm putting a fair bit of my money into my retirement account at work (so I get my full employer match! )

My mortgage payment is $750 a month; I have a 3,600 square foot house, and my purchase amount was $220,000. I also have to pay $4,000 each year for property taxes, and $700 for homeowner's insurance. My car insurance is $800 every six months. Every three months I have to pay about $300 for my water and sewer usage. My television and internet is $100 a month, and my cell phone is free from work. My car payment is $250, and my average electric and gas bill (it's together) is around $225.

I rarely use gasoline, and I budget $500 a week for groceries (including wine and pet supplies) I put $700 each pay into my short and long term savings. Things aren't always exactly the same, because some payments and such fluctuate, but I usually have between like $500-$1000 a pay to spend on whatever the hell I want. I give $250 each pay to my church and for charities (I donate to Susan G Komen and Planned Parenthood)

Things feel cheap in Michigan. My yoga classes are $10 each (for an hour) I pay about $75 to get my hair styled (with tip), about $40 for waxing when I need it, and about $90 for a 60 minute massage. Going to a movie costs me about $9, because I prefer matinees and I just drink tap water (which they'll give you for free) When I go out to eat, my bill will usually come to between $100-$200 (with tip), but I don't eat out very often.

Clothing prices vary a lot here, I can find cute and comfy things as low as like $25, or sometimes up to like $200. I'll spend anywhere from $10 to $150 for shoes or boots, I'm not picky on brands or anything as long as they look and feel nice.

My husband fills up his gasoline every two weeks or so, and that's about $50.

Oh yes, during the spring and summer I pay about $100 a month for my yard to get mowed, and I pay $30 each time in winter I need to be plowed.

I'd say generally life is very comfortable and affordable here, I have access to everything I need and I never feel financially strained. There are soooo many business around, and you see people out shopping and eating all the time, and everyone has cars, and so on, I just get a sense people complain a lot but would mostly find they're well off if they'd really stop and think about it

 

[Kaitzilla]

My household gross income, combined with my husband, is $160 thousand. My net income each pay is roughly $2200, and my husband's is $1800 ... but I'm putting a fair bit of my money into my retirement account at work (so I get my full employer match! )

Whoa, that is outstanding!

I also have to pay $4,000 each year for property taxes

Make sure never to be a $1 short on this!
Michigan is one of the 5 evil states that incentivize stealing peoples' property if they are even a bit behind.
https://www.wsj.com/articles/for-8-...government-took-uri-rafaelis-house-1544227055

Uri Rafaeli is an 83-year-old engineer and great-grandfather. He never expected the government to treat him like a drug dealer or gang banger. But last year the Michigan Court of Appeals held that a county government could use civil asset forfeiture—the same legal process used by police to confiscate drug lords’ mansions—to seize a modest rental property Mr. Rafaeli owned because he accidentally underpaid his property taxes by $8.41.

Mr. Rafaeli bought the house through his business for $60,000 in 2011. Later that year he inadvertently underpaid his property’s taxes by $496. When he learned of his mistake in 2013, Mr. Rafaeli attempted to pay the debt in full but failed to account for the interest that had accumulated since he received the bill. He came up $8.41 short.

Unaware of his error, Mr. Rafaeli went on to pay his taxes in a timely manner in subsequent years. Nevertheless, in February 2014 Oakland County foreclosed on the property to collect the tiny debt, along with $277 in penalties, additional interest and fees. Six months later the county sold the property at auction for $24,500 and refused to refund Mr. Rafaeli any of the profits.

Mr. Rafaeli’s story is all too common in the Wolverine State. Michigan’s General Property Tax Act requires government entities like Oakland County to take property for unpaid taxes—no matter how small the debt—and to pocket all proceeds from their sale. In most states when the sale price of a tax-distressed property exceeds the debt owed to the government, the surplus is refunded to the property’s former owners. But Michigan profits off the misfortunes of property owners like Mr. Rafaeli, as do Massachusetts, Minnesota, North Dakota and Oregon.

Yup, 5 states that heard about civil asset forfeiture abuse and thought "we can go bigger".

His sister and himself have been priced out of the market. She's 23 and engaged, he's 27 from well off families.

This seems like a common story around the developed world lately.
Does it have something to do with the rise of mortgage backed securities I wonder?
Or maybe just due to ultra-low interest rates?

https://www.visualcapitalist.com/biggest-real-estate-bubbles-2018/

Finally, the U.S. market – which felt the pain of the housing crash in the late 2000s – is home to zero cities in the bubble risk category, according to UBS.
Whether it is a bubble or not, many people agree that San Francisco’s housing situation is still a crisis. In the Bay Area hub, 60% of all rental units are in rental-controlled buildings, and the median single-family house price is a hefty $1.7 million.

Big banks are saying there is no housing bubble in USA, which means housing prices won't decline in the future.
Ignore the middle class needing to be multi-millionaires to live!

 

[Birdjaguar]

House paid off.
No car loans.
No debts.
Low cost of living in NM.
Frugal lifestyle with savings.

= relaxed retirement

 

[rah]

Ditto
Ditto
Ditto
Illinois sucks so I must leave.
Retirement soon.

 

[Thorgalaeg]

Inherited house.
No car loans. (Looking for new one just now as you probably now, which i will pay in cash)
No children.
Frugal life style.
Stable job.

= relaxed retirement with sailboat.

 

[Lexicus]

I make not a lot of money in one of the most expensive cities in the world. I'm okay for now though because I live pretty cheaply. Video games are actually quite a cheap hobby on a per-hour basis, especially if you're like me and still happily playing games from the early 2000s, no need to catch up on all the latest releases.

 

[Zardnaar]

I make not a lot of money in one of the most expensive cities in the world. I'm okay for now though because I live pretty cheaply. Video games are actually quite a cheap hobby on a per-hour basis, especially if you're like me and still happily playing games from the early 2000s, no need to catch up on all the latest releases.

What ones are you playing? I've been playing Civ3 and trying to get SMAC running.

 

[hobbsyoyo]

Rent is very high here - I have a quarter of the square footage in my apartment as Mary has in her house and pay over 2.5x times in rent as her mortgage. I have another $1,000 per month in student loans every month plus an addition $2,000 per month for the next 6 months while my wife is in grad school. With our salaries it is manageable but makes saving slow. When I got my first aero job we focused on paying off credit cards and building a nest egg and we have only just begun to even think about retirement savings. Home ownership is off the table forever* and my wife and I have been together a decade and only started trying to have a baby in the past year.

I don't care that much about the home ownership thing though it does bug me that mortgage holders get a tax break. I like living in truly walkable neighborhoods and you don't get those in the suburbs.

*As long as we live in California anyways. Which is hopefully forever.

 

[Lexicus]

What ones are you playing? I've been playing Civ3 and trying to get SMAC running.

Civ 4 and Medieval 2: Total War mostly.

 

[Synobun]

Cost of living is high here (2nd or 3rd most expensive in the world). Wages are depressed relative to comparative cities.

The market can probably be split into bottom, normal, and elite. The tricky part is that the gap between the bottom market and the normal market is massive. Unless you're lucky, moving from scraping the bottom of the barrel to a more "standard" way of living (in terms of housing and lifestyle) can take several years, and might not happen at all. If you partake in welfare, the government imposes limits on you that make it impossible to get out of the hole unless you get lucky and get a well-paying job (in a wage-depressed city with high costs). If you're not on welfare and instead rely on incremental raises and the job search, the end result is still similar. Inflation-adjusted raises are the best you can hope for, and job-hopping isn't easy here except in tech, but our tech industry is laughable and the gains you'd ordinarily see from job-hopping are minimal.

Much of the improvements you see in your life at the bottom here, if you are even moving up, are in the shape of temporary luxuries. Maybe you can get a house cleaner. Maybe you can eat out more. Maybe you can buy more things. Saving money, if you receive welfare, is strictly verboten. You're forced into stuffing money under your bed, but they'll still ding you for having "too much" money in your accounts between getting paid and withdrawing it. Saving up money if you don't receive welfare can feel useless, since what are you saving up for except the next purchase? Psychologically, you may be aware that saving money can expedite the process once your income hits a certain target, but at the bottom you're just barely surviving from one day to the next. You won't be optimal. Nobody can be optimal, but they especially can't when the small luxuries are the only joy they have. Bigger picture improvements are frozen until you reach the magic number.

I can double what I earn right now and I would still be in a situation where any big change I make would be lateral instead of up. Couple that with the reality that making such a drastic improvement in income would lose my benefits through the government, my quality of life would actually go down in the process of trying to become a more productive, self-sufficient member of society. I'd start seeing the potential for major improvement once I hit the mythical "triple my current income" target.

 

[Timsup2nothin]

What ones are you playing? I've been playing Civ3 and trying to get SMAC running.

The easiest way to get SMAC running is to spring a handful of dollars for the GoG version. Bringing the original disk versions into compatibility with operating systems more recent than Win98 is a battle. It runs on the CivII engine, and I think Firaxis had to "innovate" just to get it working on 98...and the residue of that innovation makes it hard to push it further. GoG version worked great straight from the box though, on every machine I've had since I bought it. Fingers crossed for my new Win10 rig, but I'm pretty confident.

 

[hobbsyoyo]

I bought Sim City 3000 off GoG when I got a job and it runs just fine on Windows 10. The only big issues I have with it is the resolution is terrible. I've tried adjusting it but the game just doesn't support modern displays and the work-arounds (editing text files and such) are very computer-specific and hit or miss. When I run it in its highest resolution, the game screen shrinks to like the size of a postage stamp (not really but it's still unusable) and I cannot get it to run in true windowed mode.

 

[Commodore]

Things feel cheap in Michigan.

Same in Ohio. We gotta keep the cheapness of Midwest living a secret though before all those "coastals" start trying to move here and drive costs up.

 

[Ajidica]

Same in Ohio. We gotta keep the cheapness of Midwest living a secret though before all those "coastals" start trying to move here and drive costs up.

Eh, here in Minnesota we just rely on winter to keep the weak away.