COTM 06 Pre-Game Discussion

[Hannabir]

If there is a settler factory in despotism - and we'll probably know in one turn - it will again be an easy game, where only the race to Republic is interesting. If there isn't - we'll see.

A question: how does The Lighthouse affect the Portuguese?

 

[eldar]

A question: how does The Lighthouse affect the Portuguese?

IIRC, the Lighthouse is Seafaring and Expansionist. Given you're not likely to be building it until after turning Republic, that's not such a bad thing.

Seafaring Civs with the Lighthouse are real powerhouses. 'Nuff said on that.

Neil.

 

[socralynnek]

Settling 1NE looks like a good 20K location.

I don't know, you're off the coast and miss the Sea bonus and the Sea wonders...but you're right, it will get a lot more shields there.

 

[MikeH]

The main problem with 1NE is that it takes you away from the coast and we're a seafaring civ. It would probably take a lot to make me move from the start on this one, we've got a coast, a river, a luxury and a food bonus. If there are 3 cows on the river 3 spaces away, I might reconsider .

After my abysmal performance in COTM05 though, perhaps I should keep my mouth shut.

 

[eldar]

1NE is still on the coast. It's right by the river delta. It does exclude more coast/sea tiles from the eventual production radius, thus allowing more shields (from the hills and mountains, which can be worked at size 12 using the Fish and Wines to balance out the loss of food).

[Edit: Oops, moving 1NE loses the Fish. No big deal, the BG can still be irrigated instead of mined. Unless there's another food bonus in the fog ]

Neil.

 

[MikeH]

1NE is still on the coast. It's right by the river delta.

It is? I'll never understand how people can play with the grid off .

 

[Doc Tsiolkovski]

Ya know, Doc, it does take the GOTM staff quite a lot of time to generate and play-test each map -- any changes based on the recent discussions will take a couple of months to be evident out here.

Just saying.

Renata

Surely, but where would be the problem to up the difficulty a notch? We're not speaking about Deity here.

See it that way: With a builder Civ like Mayans, lower level games can be fun. With a military Civ like Mongols, you can have a lot of fun here as well, by playing against the clock. Same for scientific powerhouses. But EXP really shines only on Emperor and DG, and SEA is almost pointless below Emperor - what's the use of early contacts, when everyone you find is even more backwards?
England or Portugal are among the best Civs for higher levels, but on Monarch it's close to play without traits. Boring.

 

[socralynnek]

1NE is still on the coast. It's right by the river delta. It does exclude more coast/sea tiles from the eventual production radius, thus allowing more shields (from the hills and mountains, which can be worked at size 12 using the Fish and Wines to balance out the loss of food).

[Edit: Oops, moving 1NE loses the Fish. No big deal, the BG can still be irrigated instead of mined. Unless there's another food bonus in the fog ]

Neil.

Yeah, sorry, misunderstood the grid (I think in my first post also).
Might be a good idea, losing the fish is not that big a deal. We have a scout to look what we get before moving up.

 

[Denniz]

I will probably move the scout south to see if we would lose anything. Then the worker north.
Then decide if I settle in spot or move ne.
There is always some hope for more wine northish, because luxes tend to cling together. Maybe even enough for a settler factory.
In any case the worker will irrigate the wine first.
That will shave two turns off the growth to size 2.

Sounds like a plan. I think I will built Scout thenCurragh first. Then either warrior or another Curragh. Of course, in case ainwood put us on a small island, it might be better to build a Curragh and then decide whether to build a scout. But I like having at least two scouts to maximize my chance for distant GH popping.

Monarch again, Food bonus + Lux start again
Am I the only one who's not happy about this? I mean, all those discussion about CotMs being too easy, and dom/milking favored too much seemed futile.
Why not Emperor? Below that level, the whole game concept of 'Tech Trading', and most of the concept 'Happiness' is pointless

One of the things to come out previous discussions was to keep the xOTM difficulties out of sync. That plus the steady increasing difficulty is consistant with expectations. GOTM37 is going to be deity, IIRC. I would assume COTM07 will be emperor. Plenty of challenge then, I'm sure.

 

[Darkness]

@Doc Tsiolkovski:

Like Renata said: these maps have already undergone significant playtesting by the staff over a (don't quite know how) long period of time. you can't honestly expect a game (which has been prepared and tested over time) to be subjected to quite significant changes within the last half month of release.
The request for higher difficulties has been heard, as well as the request for more difficult starts. Give Ainwood (and the staff) some time to implement these requests. It's not like their entire lives can be put on hold to implement last minute changes to fully prepared games after we ask them to do so...

On Topic: I think the serious discussion on this games opening moves will be quite limited. I can't say I know what I'll do. It all depnds on what the scout uncovers....

 

[Roland Ehnström]

Monarch? Man, when are we going to get that really challenging COTM, there has been talk of? I was really looking forward to a Deity game. So far, five out of the first six COTM's have been Monarch or easier. Still not one Emperor game!

*sigh* OK, enough whining for today, let's have a look on this start, then...

Uuhh, looks simple enough: Scout NE, E. Worker SE. If nothing very interesting is found, Settler builds Lisbon. Worker then mine and road, before moving to the Wine, irrigate and road.

Build-order for Lisbon: Curragh, Curragh, Settler, Granary, Settler...

Research: Writing --> Code of Laws --> Philosophy (+ free Republic)

I hope the map offers some nasty surprises, to make this game interesting!

-- Roland

 

[Hannabir]

Hmm, if we are going to settle on the spot, my worker will go north first to irrigate the wines, while we build an extra worker.

 

[HookEmHorns]

The two likely settling spots are the current tile and ne. Moving the scout e, then ne onto the hill will reveal all but one of the tiles for the current spot and most of the tiles for the ne spot. That should make it easy to decide if a ne tile is better than the fish.

Unless there are a lot of grapes around, Lisbon probably won't be a settler factory, we'll know soon. A granary is not the highest priority then. Building a couple of explorers (scouts or curraghs) then a settler is likely.

I do envision Lisbon as the home of the Great Lighthouse, however. That will trigger the Golden Age as the carrack comes too late for the GA to be most effective.

On monarch, with the extra gold from seafaring and wine, we should lead handily in techs. Standard Philosophy beeline for free Republic, then Map Making to bring in the Lighthouse.

Probable first worker move will be to the wine to irrigate. Food first!

 

[klarius]

One small remark:
I've seen several people mention the fish.
Don't let your decision where to settle be driven by the fish.
They are completely useless for the capital.
They don't provide a food bonus before Republic.
Later in Republic there is more than enough food around anyways by all the grass and the wine.

 

[Hannabir]

Klarius,

Republic will come very fast and from then on, with a harbor, it's +2 food which translates to +2 shields when other squares are mined instead of irrigated. Don't underestimate the value of fish!

In despotism, without a harbor, the extra gold can still make a small difference each time you have shields to spare.

If you had to move a square to get to the fish, and republic would be far away as in PTW, it would be different, but it would have to be something really good now to have me spend a turn to move away from the fish.

 

[klarius]

@Hannabir
Especially because Republic is so near, I don't see any value in fish.
The capital will still have to make settlers then and stay at small size. In Republic it can be a 4-turn settler factory for sure w/o the need for fish.
And I don't see a benefit of having a harbor soon anyways. There is no reason to work other coastal tiles with all the nice river tiles around. So it would be only for the fish tile.

 

[lukasbradley]

It is? I'll never understand how people can play with the grid off .

I'm with you, Mike.

 

[dmanakho]

Surely, but where would be the problem to up the difficulty a notch? We're not speaking about Deity here.

See it that way: With a builder Civ like Mayans, lower level games can be fun. With a military Civ like Mongols, you can have a lot of fun here as well, by playing against the clock. Same for scientific powerhouses. But EXP really shines only on Emperor and DG, and SEA is almost pointless below Emperor - what's the use of early contacts, when everyone you find is even more backwards?
England or Portugal are among the best Civs for higher levels, but on Monarch it's close to play without traits. Boring.

Doc, I appreciate you as a good player who is bored playing low level games...
But i certainly don't appreciate what i hear as a harsh criticism towards Civfanatics staff...
I think Ainwood and Co do a tremendous job setting up Games of the months twice a month and guys take their personal time they could probably use for something else.

I am sure there will be more challenging games ahead of us as Renata guessed...
Personally, when i feel game is boring or too easy i simply quit it..
I skipped the latest regent games for Zulu and Incas for example, because i felt bored playing them.
Another point, no matter what moderators here do, they are not going to be able to please every single person.
Let's be patient and bring suggestions to the forum instead of criticism.

 

[Hannabir]

Klarius,

Even in Republic, from what we see a 4-turn settler factory is not guaranteed without the fish. Or, if there are bonuses under the fog, the fish may give us another 3-turn settler factory.
If it makes no difference to the factory, the 2 extra shields will be used by neighbouring cities.

 

[Doc Tsiolkovski]

Doc, I appreciate you as a good player who is bored playing low level games...
But i certainly don't appreciate what i hear as a harsh criticism towards Civfanatics staff...
I think Ainwood and Co do a tremendous job setting up Games of the months twice a month and guys take their personal time they could probably use for something else.

Absolutely no bad words against the staff intended! I just don't think any map that works well for Monarch needs to be tested again for Emperor. And we recently learned how small the impact from the 'Best Date' really is.
No, I'm not insisting on high levels, for Sumeria there would have been nothing wrong with Monarch. I just think the SEA trait doesn't really work below Emperor.