Criticism of Josh Gordon and race relations

[Arwon]

And like a third of white Australian men it seems

 

[Farm Boy]

This is judging someone by their dialect and not the content of their character. To characterize AAVE as "ghetto trash talk" is to characterize a neutral cultural signifier as trash because it does not conform to the standard of those in power.

I really liked this. It's a little more complicated since there is an overall trend in US English to migrate towards speaking more like people do around me, thus making a dialect that may be hard to understand seem like poor English rather than simply different English.

But yea, still holds true if its people in Chicago I can barely understand, different people in Chicago I can barely understand, or old guys from around here that I can understand but the fellas in Chicago probably wouldn't so well.

 

[Sommerswerd]

I try to offer a more reasonable voice in the discussion of race here but sometimes I can't help but feel like until we actually have black civvers in OT

Well, I'm Black...

Some of you guys who know me might have already known that, but just for the heck of it here is some proof in a thread on Apolyton where I explain why I chose my Avatar. (For reference it's currently a pic of Morgan Freeman, in case I change it later)

Anyway I just recently started reading the OT threads because I haven't been playing much Pitboss, and I noticed this topic. I would like to participate in this discussion since I noticed a lot of you guys lamenting that there were no Black voices in the thread. I am on page 6 of this thread now, and I plan on reading the whole thing (2 pages to go ).

Anyway, those of you who know me know I can be VERY long-winded, I will really try to just join in rather than try to respond to every single point that I disagree/agree with. In any case... interesting topic

EDIT: After reading the rest of the thread, it seems that the discussion has died down, or at least a lot of the relevant points have already been made in one way or another... Well at least I am subscribed to the thread so I can follow the discussion.

 

[Traitorfish]

Being a fan and seeing someone as a role model are two different things. I voted for Jeremy Lin in the All-Star game but I don't have any aspirations to be like him. I've hardly met any Asian guys who realistically thought they had a shot of being big-time in the MBA.

And even in working-class(not really sure how you define working class) neighborhoods like Chinatowns and such, Kids and parents value education more than Basketball or Rap skills. We understand education, not sports and rap skills are the key to success in life.

Neither of those seem like very representative samples. Most Asian-Americans are neither the offspring of suburban professionals on the one hand, nor are they first- and second-generation Chinese-Americans living in ethnic enclaves on the other. You seem to be relying very heavily on anecdote and stereotype, here, about both Asian-Americans and African-Americans.

 

[warpus]

Can we agree that community is very important in either helping you or holding you back in terms of what sort of opportunities you realize in life?

If the community you grow up in sucks, your life will suck as well. That's highly generalized and incredibly simplified, but the way I see it's the main issue here. Not to take away from the racism - but I think people need to start admitting that community plays a huge role in the lives of their constituent citizens. If the community you live in is not very conductive to success - then you will have to work that much harder to achieve it and to "break out".

That socioeconomic mobility in the U.S. is so crappy does of course not help either.

 

[Archbob]

Holy missing the point Batman.

I understand comparative advantage but it honestly isn't that strong of an argument in this case especially when there's affirmative action involved and schools have quota of how many of each rave they must let in and different standards for test scores and grades.

You also rely on a wiki list for "successful rap artists". I highly doubt most of the artists on that list are well known.


As to traitorfish's post, I think it is actually pretty representative of the Asian population in today's society, at least those from the Far East. If you look Median income level, you'll realize the average Asian is a middle-class person or at least at the upper levels of the working class.

I actually like warpus's point. It's fine to blame everything around you since that is part of the problem, but its foolish to think that the community and the persons in question don't shoulder any responsibility.

 

[Farm Boy]

That socioeconomic mobility in the U.S. is so crappy does of course not help either.

It's because we don't get our fries with a huge grin and a "yessa."

 

[warpus]

It's because we don't get our fries with a huge grin and a "yessa."

What is this a reference to? Is it just me or does it smell a bit.. racist?

 

[Zack]

What is this a reference to? Is it just me or does it smell a bit.. racist?

Think Samuel Jackson's character in Django Unchained.

 

[warpus]

Haven't seen it. Going with racism. Thanks a lot farmboy, for the racism.

 

[Sommerswerd]

I actually like warpus's point. It's fine to blame everything around you since that is part of the problem, but its foolish to think that the community and the persons in question don't shoulder any responsibility.

So after reading this whole thread, I see you repeatedly stating (oversimplifying here) that its a 50/50 nature nurture problem, as in equal fault on exterior factors environment, society whatever... and equal fault on the individuals, presumably the "Black-community-at-large" (again to make it simple).

But the content of your arguments suggest that you actually believe its not 50/50 at all, but personal responsibility is primary.

So I would first like to ask for reference which are you saying?:

1. "Its over 50% nurture, ie Black people need to get their act together b/c their own failings/social pathologies are more to blame for their economically disadvantaged position"

2. "It's really 50/50 nature/nurture and neither factor is more of a cause than the other."

If its the former, then I have a better basis to understand where you are coming from and respond. If its the latter, then I need to ask the follow-up question...

- Then what percentage values would you attribute to other races/ethnicities economic failures/success? Would you say the cause of their median/mean/average economic status is more or less attributable to their own culture/behaviors etc or imbedded societal advantages? Is it also 50/50, or is it different for other races/ethnic groups?

I understand comparative advantage but it honestly isn't that strong of an argument in this case especially when there's affirmative action involved and schools have quota of how many of each rave they must let in and different standards for test scores and grades.

This is false. There is no quota. I have some anecdotal evidence on this. I worked in a University admissions department for my Law School. The way it works is the University has a number of acceptances/waitlists they will grant as a multiple of the spaces available (b/c they assume that not all accepted will attend). Applications are first sorted into 'Yes', 'No' and 'Maybe' piles. Then all the 'Yes' applications are admitted. Then, minority applicants' applications are marked as such (if they identify themselves as minorities). Then, if there are spaces left the admissions officers begin adding up the virtues and detriments of the "Maybe" applicants (grades, extracurriculars, LSAT scores, references, recommendations, interview performance, connections to alumni etc). During this process, a new set of clear 'Yes' applicants will emerge based on the preponderance of their positive attributes v. negative ones. Then, those folks are admitted. Then, if there are still a few spaces left after that, admissions officers are permitted (not required) to consider minority status as a sort of +1 modifier for these remaining borderline applicants.

This means that in the utterly impossible hypothetical situation that there are two identical applicants (one white, one minority) who are borderline (ie bottom of the barrel in terms of what the University would admit) and the quality of the applicant pool is such that there is still space for "borderline" applicants, then the minority applicant will probably edge out the white one because of being a minority.

I also interviewed an admissions officer for an Ivy League undergraduate University, and he informed me that "By far the single most important factor in admission to this or any major, particularly any Ivy League school is legacy. All things being equal, legacy gives you an essentially insurmountable advantage." In other words, people whos relatives, particularly parents and grandparents attended a school are shoe-ins over everyone else to be admitted, assuming their grades etc are comparable to what the University requires.

 

[Timsup2nothin]

You just ruined ArchBob's 'picked on white man rising above society's unfair challenges' self image. Not that he is likely to notice.

 

[warpus]

Just so we're clear what I was trying to say - I wasn't talking about responsibility or blame. I just see community as an integral aspect of any such discussion, and I almost never see it brought up in this context - which I find strange. It's almost as if people are refusing to face it, just because it's so easy to spin it in a very racist way, if you wanted to. So they pretend it doesn't exist, and they try to fix the problem in other ways.

 

[Farm Boy]

Haven't seen it. Going with racism. Thanks a lot farmboy, for the racism.

Anytime Warpus!

 

[Timsup2nothin]

Just so we're clear what I was trying to say - I wasn't talking about responsibility or blame. I just see community as an integral aspect of any such discussion, and I almost never see it brought up in this context - which I find strange. It's almost as if people are refusing to face it, just because it's so easy to spin it in a very racist way, if you wanted to. So they pretend it doesn't exist, and they try to fix the problem in other ways.

The strange thing about the racism aspects of bringing up community...

Have you noticed that people who talk the loudest about the 'damage' that the 'black community' is doing to its individual members also talk the loudest about how the community as a whole certainly has no impact at all on individual blacks?

 

[warpus]

@Farm_Boy Hey, it's not like your response to my (very fact based) assertion that social mobility in the U.S. sucks donkey balls made any sense. So I've got to assume the worst. (But lighten up, I don't really think you're a racist or anything)

The strange thing about the racism aspects of bringing up community...

Have you noticed that people who talk the loudest about the 'damage' that the 'black community' is doing to its individual members also talk the loudest about how the community as a whole certainly has no impact at all on individual blacks?

I'm not even talking about "black community" here. I'm talking about the community you live in - your street. I am talking about the larger community you belong to - your neighbourhood, your coworkers, your family. I am talking about the country as a whole - it's supposed to be a community, isn't it? I'm talking about social support services, I'm talking about nice parks you could walk through on your walk home, I'm talking about easy availability of grocery stores selling green produce, I'm talking about public transit, about support groups when you're down, I'm talking about the people you hang out with, and so on.

If your community isn't conductive to your future success - you are going to have a harder time succeeding.

I don't even know if a thing such as "black community" exists. I am not talking about that. Every poor person will have a slightly different experience - and live in a slightly different community. Some of them might be majority black, some of them might not. I don't want to talk about that. I think that focusing on "Black people walk like this: {} and white people walk like this: {}" detracts from the issues people should be focusing on instead - a lack of support for communities, their growth, and their existence as a place where people can grow as well.

 

[Farm Boy]

I know, I was linking in your comments about donkey balls to your comments about community supported work ethic along with your previous observations about blacks working fast food jobs in the Midwest.

 

[Timsup2nothin]

I'm not even talking about "black community" here. I'm talking about the community you live in - your street. I am talking about the larger community you belong to - your neighbourhood, your coworkers, your family. I am talking about the country as a whole - it's supposed to be a community, isn't it? I'm talking about social support services, I'm talking about nice parks you could walk through on your walk home, I'm talking about easy availability of grocery stores selling green produce, I'm talking about public transit, about support groups when you're down, I'm talking about the people you hang out with, and so on.

If your community isn't conductive to your future success - you are going to have a harder time succeeding.

I don't even know if a thing such as "black community" exists. I am not talking about that. Every poor person will have a slightly different experience - and live in a slightly different community. Some of them might be majority black, some of them might not. I don't want to talk about that. I think that focusing on "Black people walk like this: {} and white people walk like this: {}" detracts from the issues people should be focusing on instead - a lack of support for communities, their growth, and their existence as a place where people can grow as well.

I get it. My observation was about people who blow their trumpets about how the 'black community' which they define as rappers and 'thug culture' and an assortment of other negative influences are what keeps young blacks from succeeding...but when you suggest to them that there may be some flaws in the community at large that may also impede a young black they immediately shift to "it's all about individual responsibility".

Basically, only this 'community' that they themselves are not a part of can be held to any account for the situation.

 

[Archbob]

I used 50/50 because its the middle marker. As to what I believe:

1. I believe in the 1960s right after the civil rights, it was mostly racism/prejudice, I would almost say 80/20 or 70/30. But its been 50 years and people have gotten a lot more tolerant. You also have a new wave of black immigrants coming over in the recent years who have median incomes far above the average american income, proving that race alone can't keep people down. The difference between the two groups? Once values education and one doesn't. The overwhelming mindset since then has been "blame whitey or everyone else for all our problems". How has that worked out for the blacks? What has it gotten them?

2. As for other ethnic groups. I can only speak for the Asian group where I believe most of it is in the parenting and value system. Out median income is far above even that of whites(and even more so if you are just counting those of far eastern origin). The main reason is that we value education far more than even whites. When I was younger, we had to get all A's or the parents would ground us until the next report card came out and the community largely accented to these kind of parenting methods because education was so highly valued in our community. Under conditions like that, its very easy to get the best grades, be at the top of the class, get into the best colleges, and then get the high-paying jobs. Now, I don't agree with such parenting methods but it is very effective to producing upper-middle class people once they enter the real world. We also don't mind integrating into mainstream society. We don't "rage against the system" because we realized that pointless and its better to make the system work for us. Groups that refuse to integrate into mainstream society and see it as "selling out" don't do as well. The world isn't going to adjust to any ethnic or racial group, its that group that has to adjust. If it can't, it will get left behind.

As for admissions quotas, even at Ivy leagues, there is(or was at least a cap) as this lawsuit shows:

http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2014/nov/18/harvard-unc-sued-over-race-based-admission-policie/

It probably doesn't happen as much at the graduate level but you have to go to undergrad before you can get into grad school.

 

[warpus]

I know, I was linking in your comments about donkey balls to your comments about community supported work ethic along with your previous observations about blacks working fast food jobs in the Midwest.

That's kind of random! That was like weeks ago. Months?