Crusader Kings 2

[Joecoolyo]

Blech, I'm still on the fence about getting this game, I can't tell if there's going to be a high-replay value or not. So far after playing like 5 games of the demo I've basically formulated beginning steps of what I should be doing, and apply them to each dynasty I play as. Then after doing those steps, I just spend the rest of the 20 years waiting for things to happen, and tediously marrying off random kinsmen and getting tutors for my kids. Is there much else to the game I'm missing? Is there more to experience in the full version?

I don't want to buy this and it end up being like HOI3, where I find it awesome and fun for like a month, then realize I can only play through WW2 so many times before I bore myself.

Basically, help me decide if this is worth the 12 dollars or so (base game and good DLC) to buy this. Or, if its better for me to just bite my tongue and wait for a Vicky 2 sale/East vs. West to come out.

 

[Glassmage]

Civ5 and EU3 and this are pretty much following through the formulas, but the fun is when unexpected random things happen and events that make you laugh and cry(which happen more in this game than Civ5 and EU3 because this game you control characters not nations with different names and colors on the map).

I honestly don't know what to do with EU3 in peace time except colonizing and war is tedious with the alliance cascade. o.O

 

[cybrxkhan]

Blech, I'm still on the fence about getting this game, I can't tell if there's going to be a high-replay value or not. So far after playing like 5 games of the demo I've basically formulated beginning steps of what I should be doing, and apply them to each dynasty I play as. Then after doing those steps, I just spend the rest of the 20 years waiting for things to happen, and tediously marrying off random kinsmen and getting tutors for my kids. Is there much else to the game I'm missing? Is there more to experience in the full version?

I don't want to buy this and it end up being like HOI3, where I find it awesome and fun for like a month, then realize I can only play through WW2 so many times before I bore myself.

Basically, help me decide if this is worth the 12 dollars or so (base game and good DLC) to buy this. Or, if its better for me to just bite my tongue and wait for a Vicky 2 sale/East vs. West to come out.

It's better played as an RPG than a strategy game, in my opinion. Play the game according to your characters' traits - don't do the "best" thing because it'll give you the most benefit, do the "wrong" thing because that's what your character would do. Makes things a lot more interesting that way. And do things like accept great defeats - no reloading, essentially, because CKII really is a game you can continue playing even after a big defeat. Sure, you may for instance lose all your land in a ill-timed vassal revolt, but it'd be swell to rise up again in the ranks and take vengence on all who betrayed you in the first place. Things like that. Throw that in with the classic PI alt history lulziness, with a personal, character-based twist, and things can hopefully get more interesting.


Frankly, to be honest, I get the feeling that you probably would get bored of the other PI strategy titles quickly because ultimately they're all blobbing games - it's just the methods used to blob are different. The difference with CKII is that it's heavily character-focused, which offers an alternate form of gameplay as opposed to blobbing.


Also there's always mods. Mods aren't for everyone, but if you do manage to find one you like (and there's plenty of options for everyone - you got the feature-heavy CK2+, the hardcore flavor Prince and Thane, the hardcore balance Project Balance, among many, many others (but those are the big three)), it's hard to go back. Well, if you do find one you like. There are a good number of flavor and roleplay mods that offer better options for roleplay if you're into that part of the game.

 

[Joecoolyo]

Civ5 and EU3 and this are pretty much following through the formulas, but the fun is when unexpected random things happen and events that make you laugh and cry(which happen more in this game than Civ5 and EU3 because this game you control characters not nations with different names and colors on the map).

I honestly don't know what to do with EU3 in peace time except colonizing and war is tedious with the alliance cascade. o.O

I agree, one the reasons I liked EU3 (and Vicky 2 to an extent) was the possibility of weird ass alt history fun. I enjoy sitting back and watching crazy things happen.

So I assume there's a good deal of this type of stuff in CKII?

It's better played as an RPG than a strategy game, in my opinion. Play the game according to your characters' traits - don't do the "best" thing because it'll give you the most benefit, do the "wrong" thing because that's what your character would do. Makes things a lot more interesting that way. And do things like accept great defeats - no reloading, essentially, because CKII really is a game you can continue playing even after a big defeat. Sure, you may for instance lose all your land in a ill-timed vassal revolt, but it'd be swell to rise up again in the ranks and take vengence on all who betrayed you in the first place. Things like that. Throw that in with the classic PI alt history lulziness, with a personal, character-based twist, and things can hopefully get more interesting.

That's an interesting way to think about it actually...

And I did kind of notice the whole "you can live without territories" thing after playing the demo for a bit. Even after a big loss you can still play and climb your way back up.

Frankly, to be honest, I get the feeling that you probably would get bored of the other PI strategy titles quickly because ultimately they're all blobbing games - it's just the methods used to blob are different. The difference with CKII is that it's heavily character-focused, which offers an alternate form of gameplay as opposed to blobbing.

The only title I've really gotten bored of was HOI3, and I think it was the fact that playing as a non-major nation wasn't very interesting, and there wasn't much room for alt-history lulziness. I had a very long stint with EU3, and a ton of fun with Vicky 2.

And while I wait for East vs. West to come out, I've been kind of wanting some sort of new grand strategy game that offered a replayable fun experience like EU3 and Vicky II. I think the fact that the demo limits me to 20 years along with the fact that I choose minors (I prefer to start out small and build my way to awesomness) has kind of messed with my opinion of the game. Hence the whole "there's not much going on" thing.

So I guess that's why I came on here to find out instead, since the demo just doesn't give me enough time. With time in the game, does more fun juicy stuff come along?

Also there's always mods. Mods aren't for everyone, but if you do manage to find one you like (and there's plenty of options for everyone - you got the feature-heavy CK2+, the hardcore flavor Prince and Thane, the hardcore balance Project Balance, among many, many others (but those are the big three)), it's hard to go back. Well, if you do find one you like. There are a good number of flavor and roleplay mods that offer better options for roleplay if you're into that part of the game.

True, as with every Pdox game, mods are always an option to increase replayability. Though I tend to save mods for after playing vanilla enough to want something different

 

[Zack]

CKII is very easy to get into. I've put over 100 hours into it, which is a ton for me. I have HOI3 (all expansions) and Victoria II (base), but I'm struggling to get into them, especially Vicky.

EDIT: I should add that I bought EU3: Complete (not Chronicles) awhile back and never really got into it. HOI2 and CK2 are the only Paradox games I've spent a significant amount of time playing.

 

[Glassmage]

CKII is very easy to get into. I've put over 100 hours into it, which is a ton for me. I have HOI3 (all expansions) and Victoria II (base), but I'm struggling to get into them, especially Vicky.

LOL when I look at Vicky 2 all I can think about is I rather do my tax for the IRS than playing the game.

 

[Double A]

Your ruler has an impressive Intrigue, there. I guessed that's how he picked up Louis XI's epithet ('the Spider').

16 is impressive?

 

[cybrxkhan]

I agree, one the reasons I liked EU3 (and Vicky 2 to an extent) was the possibility of weird ass alt history fun. I enjoy sitting back and watching crazy things happen.

So I assume there's a good deal of this type of stuff in CKII?

So I guess that's why I came on here to find out instead, since the demo just doesn't give me enough time. With time in the game, does more fun juicy stuff come along?

Tons of lulzy stuff can happen in CKII, indeed. You can do some lulzy stuff yourself, if you want. My brother, for instance, played a 200+ year game where he tried to make sure his entire dynasty of Irish Kings looked black (or, well, Muslim - this was before the African portrait DLC came out). So he married with an African woman and assassinated any descendants who looked white - he even assassinated his current character's uber-genius awesome grandson with awesome stats once the guy popped out a half-black son (so the great-grandson) because he looked white. I guess my brother really liked playing a super-racist Afrocentric King of Ireland. Stupid? Yes. Hilarious? Of course. Why wouldn't a dynasty of racist black Irish kings be hilarious (in terms of black humor, of course - which CKII is full of)?

The AI can also pull off some interesting things. Back before the 1.08 patch (I think), when Jihads were much more dangerous, one of my most interesting games was as a Byzantine vassal - almost the entire Byzantine Empire was overrun by the Fatimids, and while it survived in Bulgaria, the part I lived in was turned into Fatimid territory, so I ended up as a Fatimid vassal. Eventually I attempted a war of independence three times over three different generations. In the last one, my home province was overrun by the Sultanate of Rum in a holy war... but I managed to barely survive because I recently took a province in Serbia, and the Fatimids were unable to take that one tiny province because they were too busy fighting off a Crusade, so I won my independence and redeclared my allegiance to the Byzantine Empire in exile in Bulgaria.

Sometimes putting the game in observe mode (letting it run by itself without the player playing any character), you see tons of interesting things happen.

Of course there's also a good nmber of flavor events, which is probably the best source of short-term diversion - and some of the flavor events are very well-done in my opinion, even more so with some of the main DLCs, although they do get old quickly (which is why mods are useful if you want more flavor).

 

[Joecoolyo]

cybrxkhan, you're making this game sound very enticing

I'm leaning towards getting it now. Only things to talk about then are the DLC, since Pdox seemed to have spammed it to death in CKII.

If I get CKII, I'm definitely getting Sword of Islam without a doubt (Muslims are much too interesting not to play as), and probably the Republic now that its on sale. Legacy of Rome I'm iffy about, what exactly does it add? Also are any of the song/portrait/unit packs worth it?

 

[cybrxkhan]

cybrxkhan, you're making this game sound very enticing

Well, hopefully I don't want you to waste your money for nothing. Hopefully that won't happen. actually I'm a marketing agent for PI, scamming innocent people into buying CKII

But you do have to be very active in roleplaying if you want some long-lasting re-playability, definitely. CKII isn't a very normal strategy game in that regard, in my opinion. Definitely like anything it is an acquired taste, but I think it's much easier to get into compared to other PI titles - or even some other strategy games, for that matter - if only because of its bigger emphasis on personal interaction (I like to think of it like the Sims). It's much easier to understand and relate to "lol my brother's being a douchebag to me, how shall I get him out of the way?" as opposed to [insert some convoluted min-maxing strategy thingyamajiggy].

I'm leaning towards getting it now. Only things to talk about then are the DLC, since Pdox seemed to have spammed it to death in CKII.

If I get CKII, I'm definitely getting Sword of Islam without a doubt (Muslims are much too interesting not to play as), and probably the Republic now that its on sale. Legacy of Rome I'm iffy about, what exactly does it add? Also are any of the song/portrait/unit packs worth it?

Legacy of Rome, feature-wise, adds in retinues (which are... I think they're basically the closest you can get to a professional army in-game, although I haven't really used them) as well as some flavor events and elements for the Byzantine Empire. Most of the meaty stuff was released in the patch alongside LoR - which is a nice thing about CKII, most of the new features are given in patches rather than the major DLC.

As for the aesethic stuff the ones I think are the most important would be the portraits, as they really help with immersion - given that this is a game about characters, it helps when there's more variety and your Mongols don't look like Hindus. The other aesethic stuff you can just get if you want to, I don't think they're as necessary as the portrait packs - you may want to sample the music on youtube if you want to see if you like any of that.

 

[salty mud]

What the hell is wrong with your wife? Was she involved in some hideous horse and cart accident?

 

[Quintillus]

cybrxkhan is a good PI marketing agent!

Joecoolyo, I'd try the demo as a larger nation or someone about to inherit one, too. I found that playing as the Doukas heir was a lot of fun, particularly after becoming Emperor. The Seljuk war itself wasn't that dramatic, but the unruly vassals were actually quite fun, if scary.

And I was impressed by the ability to do screwy-but-fun things in peacetime, too. I tried Alexios I Komnenos in my second demo run. I'd hoped to try to grab the empire, but that wasn't really working out, despite my best efforts to revolt and assassinating the emperor. However, I realized I had an opportunity to throw in a monkey wrench when I saw I could swear fealty to Alp Arslan as my new overlord. Before long I was a Sunni bey in the middle of the Byzantine empire - and, though furious, the Emperor would accept me as a duke again whenever I pleased! Sadly the demo ended soon thereafter, but it was nice to stick it to the man in an unusual way.

I do like strategy-RPG mashups. That was part of why I liked M2TW - you could follow your king and top generals, and establish a personality to each one... with a certain degree of luck factored in as well. I like that CK2 allows that, but seemingly on a more intricate scale.

Although I would like a way to be notified more of certain events in relevant people's lives. I get notified if my wife died of tuberculosis, and when certain people are released from prison, but I don't get a notification that my brother died in prison, or that my sister's husband mysteriously perished. (Although maybe there's a message setting for that...) There also are sometimes courtiers who I'd like to follow more closely, and knowing when certain vassals are now six feet under could also be useful. I guess I'd like to mark certain people as "high-interest people". Is there a way to do this, without getting spammed to death about tons of people that aren't that important?

I do like the news that the ruler designer is only for the first ruler. Still not sure I'd get it, but it's good to know that you can still wind up with a family of morons!

 

[Arakhor]

16 is impressive?

Fairly impressive, yes, especially as he only got 6 from his education.

 

[Double A]

Not to sound snooty, but I only consider things impressive when they have 18 or 19. 16 is about average for my court. Any of my stats under 10 is a disappointment.

 

[cybrxkhan]

16 Intrigue is impressive for a ruler perhaps because most players don't bother with intrigue (usually focusing on either diplomacy or stewardship). But yeah most of my councillors tend to be 20+ and people ~16 in my court isn't that rare, even without inviting heathens to my court via marriages (i.e. marry female courtier to uber-awesome heathen, she hates new heathen liege, invite her back to my court because she hates the liege, uber-awesome heathen has to followe her voila, "free" uber-awesome councillor).

 

[Robert Can't]

I have another question.

I had a lovely little Kingdom, from Navarre to Tuscany it was all going well. But then my kingdom was inherited by a Zealous Heretic Homosexual Greek Queen and my vassals (all of which her uncles and aunts due to the tragic early death of her mother and the fact that the previous king had been very productive with both his wives) revolted or did other bad things. This was all fine for a while, but then I had to let some of them go independent, starting with Genoa and over the next 10 years I phased out all my Italian holding until I only had a single barony in Tuscany left.
I was quite content at this stage, I still had my very productive home provinces and I still had the title of Queen of Navarre and I had Menorca too. But the France went Holf War on me and took Navarre, then Venice went Holy War on me and took Menorca. So now I'll I've got left is a pair of Baronies.
Well, I say that's all I've got left but that would be understating the magnitude of the catastrophe - I'm still the Queen of Navarre, therefore I can't become anyone Vassal to work my way back up again, and I can't out of being Queen either....

What should I do in this situation?

 

[coanda]

I have another question.

I had a lovely little Kingdom, from Navarre to Tuscany it was all going well. But then my kingdom was inherited by a Zealous Heretic Homosexual Greek Queen and my vassals (all of which her uncles and aunts due to the tragic early death of her mother and the fact that the previous king had been very productive with both his wives) revolted or did other bad things. This was all fine for a while, but then I had to let some of them go independent, starting with Genoa and over the next 10 years I phased out all my Italian holding until I only had a single barony in Tuscany left.
I was quite content at this stage, I still had my very productive home provinces and I still had the title of Queen of Navarre and I had Menorca too. But the France went Holf War on me and took Navarre, then Venice went Holy War on me and took Menorca. So now I'll I've got left is a pair of Baronies.
Well, I say that's all I've got left but that would be understating the magnitude of the catastrophe - I'm still the Queen of Navarre, therefore I can't become anyone Vassal to work my way back up again, and I can't out of being Queen either....

What should I do in this situation?

You should have claims on all the titles you lost. Educate your heir to not be a heretic, marriage-ally HRE or France, and go take back what you lost.

 

[Glassmage]

Should have checked if the queen was heretic before she inherit the throne. :3 Since this game there is no abdication you have to ride it out.

 

[sophie]

16 Intrigue is impressive for a ruler perhaps because most players don't bother with intrigue (usually focusing on either diplomacy or stewardship). But yeah most of my councillors tend to be 20+ and people ~16 in my court isn't that rare, even without inviting heathens to my court via marriages (i.e. marry female courtier to uber-awesome heathen, she hates new heathen liege, invite her back to my court because she hates the liege, uber-awesome heathen has to followe her voila, "free" uber-awesome councillor).

All in the name of roleplaying, right?

 

[cybrxkhan]

All in the name of roleplaying, right?

I prefer to, ah, do "lite roleplay". You know. Best of both worlds.

Or, well, I imagine making a medieval model UN.

Hey, it's fun landing the descendants of these uber-courtiers and watching Italy or Ireland be dominated by dynasties of Cumans and Persians and West Africans!