Cuba: 51st State?

[Drewcifer]

Originally posted by lord_byron_nz
Why did the US take it from Spain. The same reason they took Cuba from Spain - Imperialist ambition. There was a reason the US held onto the Phillipines until 1946.

Using the events of a hundred years ago is still a bad way to justify beliefs held about the world today. History is never a justification for anything.

 

[phoenix_night]

Originally posted by MrPresident

America didn't conquer Hawaii. American farmers conquered it. Big difference.

you are so wrong...

unless of course, when you say american farmers, you mean american soldiers...

 

[lord_byron_nz]

No, I agree independence is not always a good thing and the slow US walkout of the Phillipines was a good thing. But, at the risk of sounding tired, that does not mean the US never tried to be an imperial power. It activley pursued an overseas empire at the end of the 19th Century and sought to conquer other nations to acheive this.

 

[lord_byron_nz]

you are so wrong...

No..he is so right. The initial occuption was a private venture by US citizens (i thought it was businessmen but it may have been farmers) and the US government had nothing to do with it.

Using the events of a hundred years ago is still a bad way to justify beliefs held about the world today. History is never a justification for anything.

I wasn't trying to link it to todays world, merely to point out that the US has been an imperial power in the past, something that was earlier denied.

 

[Plastic]

Did the US military go into Hawaii, pacify it, and then make it a state against the wishes of the Hawaiian people? Cause that is what you are implying that the US is going to do to Cuba.

The US freed all its colonies after WWII. It stayed only where the people wanted it to stay. Even the Phillipines wanted the US to maintain military bases there. The US did not leave the Phillipines because it was forced out by armed resistance, it left because of decolonization after WWII. The US left of its own free will.

That article says that Cuba is trying to make or buy WMD. It does not say that Cuba is at the level of threat that the axis of evil presents. And does not say that Bush considers Cuba to be part of the Axis of evil. It also says that the top levels of the Bush administration underplay the threat that Cuba poses. Therefore saying that Cuba is part of Bush's axis of evil is still incorrect.

 

[Drewcifer]

Originally posted by phoenix_night


you are so wrong...

unless of course, when you say american farmers, you mean american soldiers...

You should reread your Hawaiian histrory text, Mr. President is correct about this. There is a Hawaiian independence party, they recieve virtually no support.

What does any of this have to do with Cuba being the 51st state?

Perhaps somebody should open up a Hawaiian History thread.

 

[phoenix_night]

Originally posted by lord_byron_nz


No..he is so right. The initial occuption was a private venture by US citizens (i thought it was businessmen but it may have been farmers) and the US government had nothing to do with it.

we are not talking about initial occupation. we are talking about how it was annexed into the us as a state.

illegally, and against the wishes of the hawaiian people.

with the use of the us military.

 

[phoenix_night]

Originally posted by Plastic
Therefore saying that Cuba is part of Bush's axis of evil is still incorrect.

read my earlier post, it says about the axis thing. whether you consider it to be official or not, you can't deny bush is eyeing it up.

it says the threat is underplayed, that Cuba is more of a threat than some may believe. read it.

 

[Plastic]

A mid level secretary says that Cuba is more of a threat than some believe. That implies to me that those above him do not see Cuba as the threat that this secretary sees.

 

[ellie]

Originally posted by phoenix_night


we are not talking about initial occupation. we are talking about how it was annexed into the us as a state.

illegally, and against the wishes of the hawaiian people.

with the use of the us military.

Using ancient history such as american occuption of hawaii (hawaii though only becoming a state in 1959 was a protectorate from 1898) as an example of american @imperialism @ is silly.

Times change, views on the world change. If we were to use history as @proof@ we would expect germany to start invading france at some point in the future.

Of course germany wont, because attitudes have changed, im just trying to illustrate how ridicoulous using history can be.

Ask yourself, what would USA gain from occupying cuba?.

Ellie

 

[phoenix_night]

@Plasitc
i disagree.

 

[phoenix_night]

@ellie
it is an example of american imperialism. and if you go back to the original question, it could happen again with cuba. and then it wouldn't be so silly would it...

 

[Hamlet]

I can't understand why

A) The US would want Cuba, even if it was some sort of imperialist behemoth, as you're making it out to be.

and

B) Or how exactly it could realitically impose it's will upon Cuba against the population's wishes. That's complete fantasy.

 

[phoenix_night]

Originally posted by Hamlet

A)even if it was some sort of imperialist behemoth as you're making it out to be

B) Or how exactly it could realitically impose it's will upon Cuba against the population's wishes. That's complete fantasy.

A) i'm not, but it will invade Cuba. i simply mentioned hawaii as somebody requested information as to when the us had undertaken such action in history.

B) there are many cuban's living in america who could be taken back i suppose.

and again, hawaii.

 

[Hamlet]

Originally posted by phoenix_night
A) i'm not, but it will invade Cuba.

Why?

Originally posted by phoenix_night
B) there are many cuban's living in america who could be taken back i suppose.

That logic relies on the notion that they would actually want to go back, that sufficent numbers could go back to actually influence the political demographics, and when/if they did, they would want Cuba to join The Union.

All of which is fairly seriously flawed, if you ask me. And awful lot of 'if's' there. Big 'if's', as well.

Originally posted by phoenix_night
and again, hawaii.

You can't tell me the process by which Hawaii became a state could be replicated with Cuba in the 21st century. It's just nuts to think that. They're completely dissimilar circumstances.

 

[phoenix_night]

i think they will invade because they have been deemed 'evil' by the us and it's a good excuse to be done with castro once and for all.

it could easily be replicated in the 21st century, especially with the current world situation. but that's besides the point anyway.

 

[Plastic]

It's quite obvious that Phoenix here really wants the conclusion "the US will subjegate Cuba" to be true, despite all logic to the contrary. There's no reason to further point out the obvious flaws in his "argument" as he will just come up with more "facts" from his head. He thinks the US wants to subject Cuba, despite there being no reason to believe that the US would ever want to do this, or even any benefit to the US to do this.

 

[phoenix_night]

plastic, WTH is wrong with you. it's a question up for debate that's all. i'm not seeking any particular conclusion.

what facts are you referring to?

what is wrong with you?

will you go away?

will you never come back?

ffs, i really don't care what actually happens, i mean, for ffs....i'm fed up of this...

but you just keep trailing away from the original post, from your very first contribution.

i am not saying the us is evil, imperialistic or anything...

i was just asking that, in the events of an american invasion did you think it would be possible that cuba would become a state.

hmm.

 

[Hamlet]

Originally posted by phoenix_night
i think they will invade

For starters, there are absolutely no certainties in politics, except for The Lib Dems talking about PR.

Originally posted by phoenix_night
because they have been deemed 'evil' by the us and it's a good excuse to be done with castro once and for all.

Well, they've got their hands full with Iraq. I seriously doubt that Cuba is even a remote possibility for invasion. Even Iran and North Korea are seriously unlikely, and I can't think of a single reason why The US should want to invade Cuba more than Iran or North Korea, which in themselves are pretty bloody unlikely.

Originally posted by phoenix_night
it could easily be replicated in the 21st century, especially with the current world situation.

Tell me more.

 

[Hamlet]

Originally posted by Plastic
It's quite obvious that Phoenix here really wants the conclusion "the US will subjegate Cuba" to be true, despite all logic to the contrary. There's no reason to further point out the obvious flaws in his "argument" as he will just come up with more "facts" from his head. He thinks the US wants to subject Cuba, despite there being no reason to believe that the US would ever want to do this, or even any benefit to the US to do this.

I've heard worse. I've had somebody trying to make a case that Russia will sell Kallingrad to Germany.