Cultural appropriation

[luiz]

I suppose by the OP article logic Brazilians should feel offended by all the gringo tourists using those flower hawaiian shirts and tiny shorts and flip flops, thinking they look native.

We don't, we just find it funny and odd. We also don't mind them dancing samba the slightest, even though obviously they can't do it right.

To be honest the OP article is one of the most cretinous pieces of garbage I've read recently. I think the woman who wrote it hates white women for being white, period. There's no other explanation for such nonsense. Belly dancing is not the property of Arabs.

 

[Evie]

Belly-dancing or yoga or African friggin' drumming doesn't "belong" to it's culture of origin

Hail lord and mighty Whitey, who can claim anything he wants from any culture he wants. Intellectual property exists only for individuals, after all!

I don't agree with the original article. Like many others, it goes too far. Just about anything in the world can be taken too far, even the very best ideas and the most fundamental right (see: fire, shouting, theater, crowded). This is the same here.

But there is no doubt to me that taking someone else's traditoin, making up your own version without any respect for the actual tradition, and then calling it by the same name as if it were still the same tradition is an immense display of lack of respect for other cultures.

Now, of course, cultures influence each other all the time. Sometime concepts seep from one culture's tradition into another culture's tradition. That's a normal part of interaction between any cultures.

Ultimately, to me, the guiding line should be something like this:

1)If you're going to claim that what you'r edoing or saying actually represent a given cultural tradition: actually represent it.

2)When dealing with the cultures and traditions of smaller groups (such as Native Americans), asking permission and getting the story straight from them is never a bad thing.

3)If what you're doing is just loosely inspired from a given traditional practice, then DON'T use that name for it. Find another name, maybe even a name that allude to the original tradition, but make it clear (somehow) that what you're doing is different, it's own thing, and that you aren't actually following their rules.

4)If your culture absorbed elements of another culture (for example, legends): then it,s fine to use these - they're part of your culture now. but again, it might be wise to hint at the distinction.

For example, in the story I'm working on, I draw a lot on French-Canadian legends. Many of those were influenced by Native names and stories. I intend to note at several points that the creatures that are called "Wendigo" on the basis of how they understood the stories of the Natives; and leave it deliberately hazy whether or not they're actually what the Algonquian people would have described as a Wendigo.

 

[BvBPL]

Sounds like you deliberately skirt the rules you lay out so you don't need to follow the best practices you advise others to follow.

 

[luiz]

Hail lord and mighty Whitey, who can claim anything he wants from any culture he wants. Intellectual property exists only for individuals, after all!

He was absolutely right. Belly dancing, "African drumming", yoga, whatever, don't belong to any particular culture. And "whitey" can indeed partake in any cultural practice he finds interesting, much like "darkie" can and does borrow cultural stuff from "whitey". The notion of cultural intellectual rights is ridiculous.

Let's invert the equation. Should non-white people avoid or be as careful as you recommend white people to be when adopting white (European) culture, attire, music, etc? Everyone can see this is ridiculous and racist.

The OP article writer is saying, explicitly, that even if the white belly dancers are good, and do it in a spirit similar to that of the original dancing, they shouldn't do it because they're white. That's explicit racism, it's like saying black people shouldn't wear suits or Japanese people shouldn't be maestros.

 

[Evie]

Sounds like you deliberately skirt the rules you lay out so you don't need to follow the best practices you advise others to follow.

Not really. Wendigo legends have long since passed into French-Canadian folklore (like, 200+ years ago). So Wendigos are part of my culture by now.

At the same time, I feel that it's fair to acknowledge that my culture's wendigos are not -necessarily- the wendigos of the natives. There may be similarities,there may not be. Ultimately, my wendigo are a French-Canadian legendary creature that was influenced by contact with algonquian people and legends.

So it's an explicit case of applying #4 in the best-practice rules I set out.

Luiz: the sheer idiocy of the initial article (Which I've already acknowledged) doesn't excuse the arrogance of his reply. "Nobody has a right to their own culture" is a load of self-serving bovine manure. We recognize the right of individuals to their creation; I fail to see what's so bad about recognizing that people have a similar sort of right (not identical, for practical reasons, but similar) over what they collectively created, ie their culture.

of course having that right doesn't prevent THEM from sharing their culture, but they get to share it on their own terms, rather than having other people hijacking it for their own ends left and right.

 

[luiz]

of course having that right doesn't prevent THEM from sharing their culture, but they get to share it on their own terms, rather than having other people hijacking it for their own ends left and right.

Would you say then that Europeans have special rights over classical music, and could object to Asians or other groups performing it in their own way, sometimes mixing it with their own music?

 

[Kyriakos]

Hail lord and mighty Whitey, who can claim anything he wants from any culture he wants. Intellectual property exists only for individuals, after all!

I don't agree with the original article. Like many others, it goes too far. Just about anything in the world can be taken too far, even the very best ideas and the most fundamental right (see: fire, shouting, theater, crowded). This is the same here.

But there is no doubt to me that taking someone else's traditoin, making up your own version without any respect for the actual tradition, and then calling it by the same name as if it were still the same tradition is an immense display of lack of respect for other cultures.

Now, of course, cultures influence each other all the time. Sometime concepts seep from one culture's tradition into another culture's tradition. That's a normal part of interaction between any cultures.

Ultimately, to me, the guiding line should be something like this:

1)If you're going to claim that what you'r edoing or saying actually represent a given cultural tradition: actually represent it.

2)When dealing with the cultures and traditions of smaller groups (such as Native Americans), asking permission and getting the story straight from them is never a bad thing.

3)If what you're doing is just loosely inspired from a given traditional practice, then DON'T use that name for it. Find another name, maybe even a name that allude to the original tradition, but make it clear (somehow) that what you're doing is different, it's own thing, and that you aren't actually following their rules.

4)If your culture absorbed elements of another culture (for example, legends): then it,s fine to use these - they're part of your culture now. but again, it might be wise to hint at the distinction.

For example, in the story I'm working on, I draw a lot on French-Canadian legends. Many of those were influenced by Native names and stories. I intend to note at several points that the creatures that are called "Wendigo" on the basis of how they understood the stories of the Natives; and leave it deliberately hazy whether or not they're actually what the Algonquian people would have described as a Wendigo.

All very noble. I suppose you have sued US cartoon companies for using the myth of the Sphinx of Thebes, in damned EGYPT :O

(the sphinx of Thebes was in the Greek city of Thebes, part of the myth circle of Oedipous. The egyptian city of that name in English has no relation to it, neither is there any statue of a Sphinx there, and neither is the Sphinx statue near the pyramidal complex one which related to Oedipous or the myth circle).

You were saying something about cultural (ab)use?

 

[Evie]

Would you say then that Europeans have special rights over classical music, and could object to Asians or other groups performing it in their own way, sometimes mixing it with their own music?

It depends. If it was presented as "This is classical music", and it was constantly marketed and sold as western music and culture: I'd see nothing wrong with complaints.

If on the other hand it was presented as "This was inspired by classical European music", then not so much. Ultimately, it's all about whether you present yourself as part of a tradition (not cool unless you actually respect it), or as inspired by that tradition (which is perfectly normal).

---------

Kyriakos: I haven't sued anyone. But I do find it disprespectful when American moviemakers mangle greek mythology beyond recognition, yes.

(That said, what I said apply more to cultural traditions THAT STILL HAVE LIVING PRACTITIONERS. If nobody actually follows that tradition anymore - and belief in the Olympian gods and their associated mythology falls under that - then there's nobody to be disrespected.)

 

[Shaihulud]

Cultural growth is always good, your acceptance by foreigners grow as well.

 

[Kyriakos]

It depends. If it was presented as "This is classical music", and it was constantly marketed and sold as western music and culture: I'd see nothing wrong with complaints.

If on the other hand it was presented as "This was inspired by classical European music", then not so much. Ultimately, it's all about whether you present yourself as part of a tradition (not cool unless you actually respect it), or as inspired by that tradition (which is perfectly normal).

---------

Kyriakos: I haven't sued anyone. But I do find it disprespectful when American moviemakers mangle greek mythology beyond recognition, yes.

I don't, though, cause it is part of the course, and anyone is free to make a bad use of a culture (often they get mocked for it too, also fine).

Every year a delegation of Japanese visits the island of Leukas to honor "Lafcadio Hearn"1, a Greek born (Irish and Greek descent) who later on left for Japan in the 19th century and studied the local culture, art and mythology. He printed a collection of stories and notes on Japan, and became a citizen there.
If one actually does good work, the more cultured parts of the population are prone to respect him, regardless of being of another culture and using their own traditions through his point of view

Also, one of my favorite short stories by Kafka is "The Wish to be a Red-Indian". Simply an amazing short prose piece. Published in the early 20th century and i am sure he never saw any Native American either. Probably saw paintings, or played with toy replicas of "braves" (i had as well and those toys and clothing elements/relief on them were among my favorite)

 

[Evie]

It's okay to talk about other cultures, though. Ignoring the is even worse than appropriating their stuff.

It's just a matter that, when you take a real tradition that actually means something to lots of people, and then turn it into something completely different, then sell it claiming that it's the original tradition, "Hey guys this is what they're really like" and "Hey guys, you too can be part of their tradition now"...

That's just plain disrespectful.

Ultimately, that's what it all boils down to. Yes, you can use their stuff...so long as you do it respectfully. And doing it respectfully includes listening to them and recognizing that if you managed to create content that the people whose culture you are using find offensive, it's best just to apologize and fix it so people are aware of the difference between your stuff and the original.

The four points I suggested earlier are ways of avoiding the need to apologize in the first place, but ultimately, just apologizing and making sure people know the difference is enough.

 

[_random_]

If 16th-century Italians hadn't appropriated Greek sculptural styles that were historically rooted in appropriation of Egyptian sculptural styles and appropriated a Jewish religion that in turn appropriated Hellenic thought, then this wouldn't exist:

Don't get me wrong, there's a way to interact with other cultures that's disrespectful. But at the same time, appropriation is a crucial aspect of how cultures interact and evolve. Classical sculptors and Deuteronomistic historians might find the David terribly problematic, and Michaelangelo might dread aspects of the western artistic tradition he influenced, but all of that is okay, because that's how the world works and that's what's going to create more awesome things. White women belly-dancing probably isn't one of them, and yeah, the genie pants are probably a bit much, but let's not get in the way of progress here.

 

[Evie]

I wouldn't call it cultural appropriation when you convert to a religion, and make that religion a central part of your culture. Or in general, when something that originates from one culture become a fundamental part of another culture. Cultural appropriation has an element of *cheapening* the other culture. Turning something into a founding point of your own culture does not cheapen it.

Michaelangelo wasn't going with "Dude from someone else's religion". He was representing a religious figure that was part of his own holy book, and his own deeply held belief.

Nor would I call it appropriation when you take a tradition that had been dead, one might even say forgotten, and revive it. The Olympic games being a case in point. That's drawing inspiration from the past, not disrespectfully presenting the way of living people.

There is a place for cultural influence and interaction in the world.

 

[Kyriakos]

^I think that you can only leave people do what they want, or can, as long as it does not clearly harm others.
And presenting another culture in a less-authentic or even intelligent way, well, is pretty common, and can only exist either way. Making taboos never helps.

It also goes without saying that just because one is of a "culture" it does not at all mean they view that culture in the same way that others in that culture do.

(ps: regarding that italian statue, the hands look rather lycanthropic...)

 

[KmDubya]

One of the hallmarks of Western civilization is its propensity to assimilate successful ideas from other cultures, be it artistic, technological or military. The ability to absorb and improve is one of the main reasons of Western civilizations dominance in the world.

Phillip of Macedonia learned of hoplite warfare from Epaminondas and the Thebans during his time as a hostage there in his youth. He then improved upon the concept with his phalangites who went on to conquer all of Greece and left the tools for Alexander to conquer Persia and beyond.

The Romans took liberally from the Greeks. The Italian renaissance was based on re-discovering Greek and Roman culture.

America takes this concept to the extreme and absorbs everything from everywhere. What is American food? Everything comes from somewhere else just like American people do. In the 1980's Japanese business practices were copied in America and helped America stay on top. German scientists and technology taken from Nazi Germany helped both America and the Soviet Union into space.

If something is good America will take it and add it to American culture be it food, music or whatever.

As for your premise that one should ask permission and be respectful, who is the authority that one asks? Who decides what is or is not respectful? I say let the people decide, if something is offensive than people will shun it. Staying within one's own cultural identity is what holds people back.

 

[Evie]

Ultimately, yeah, you should not make laws against cultural appropriation. That's stupid, counter-productive, and a host of other things.

But that doesn't mean we shouldn't encourage people to respect the cultures they're borrowing from. Including trying to respect taboos or to be as respectful as possible when they break them.

Something being legal doesn't mean something is okay. It just means it's not bad enough to be actively forbidden.

KMDubya: asking permission is indeed only applicable to small, concentrated group. Smaller Native tribal groups come to mind (I know of at least one author who asked permission of a Native group in the Seattle area before using one of their folklore monsters in her story, for example). In other cases, there is indeed no one to ask and the best you can do is try to be as respectful as possible, and apologize if they feel slighted by your representation.

As for the notion that cultures grow by exposing themselves to other : I agree, but that doesn,t give me- or anyone else - the right to "force" these cultures to expose themselves. It's their call to make.

 

[Borachio]

If something is good America will take it and add it to American culture be it food, music or whatever.

Right. Ohhh-K. *backs away slowly*

(Actually, I'm pretty sure that this isn't what happens in practice. I mean, just take a look at American culture. At least, how it appears to the rest of the world. Don't get me wrong, it isn't all bad.)

 

[warpus]

1)If you're going to claim that what you'r edoing or saying actually represent a given cultural tradition: actually represent it.

Wait, so you're saying that the next time I celebrate Christmas, it has to be done the proper way?

What is the proper way to celebrate Christmas? By going to church and praising Christ I guess?

I can't just have a meal with friends and family and exchange gifts and do all the quirky Polish things that we do on the day? We can't have our meat-free meal on Christmas Eve? We can't exchange gifts on Xmas eve?

Or do you think we can celebrate Christmas but per point 3) it has to be called something else? Would "Xmas" be good enough?

Nah, I don't buy any part of your argument. It is silly.

 

[Borachio]

Michaelangelo wasn't going with "Dude from someone else's religion". He was representing a religious figure that was part of his own holy book, and his own deeply held belief.

This may not be true. Didn't I hear a tale about Michaelangelo painting the Sistine Chapel, all the while muttering that it was all nonsense?

He did, after all, do it just for the money.

Spoiler :

 

[SheaferDaDawg]

Wait, so you're saying that the next time I celebrate Christmas, it has to be done the proper way?

What is the proper way to celebrate Christmas? By going to church and praising Christ I guess?

I can't just have a meal with friends and family and exchange gifts and do all the quirky Polish things that we do on the day? We can't have our meat-free meal on Christmas Eve? We can't exchange gifts on Xmas eve?

Or do you think we can celebrate Christmas but per point 3) it has to be called something else? Would "Xmas" be good enough?

Nah, I don't buy any part of your argument. It is silly.

Well, obviously it depends. Are you attempting to steal the traditions of the Southern US, in which case you should attend church on Christmas Eve and watch a football game? Do you intend to ridicule certain Australians who are fond of a Christmas day barbecue? Or will you be mocking the traditions of the fine feast of Saturnalia?

Presumably none of the above. You might chose to incorporate, or even wholly adopt sections of each tradition, but unless you are deliberately setting out to ridicule a culture, then I would argue that it would be very hard to do so. Imitation is the sincerest form of flattery in this regard.