Current (SVN) development discussion thread

[Cosmos1985]

Alright, alright, fine. I give in. You guys are probably right. But there shouldn't be a food bonus... none of the Fur Trading forts were ever very big. Should the Fur Trading Company be time-appropriate, this would result in bigger Canadian cities in the colonial era than the modern era. Instead, just give it 2 or 3 per fur.

That is way too much. Look at what you get from the other corps pr resource, why should Furs be that overpowered compared to anything else?

I also dont understand why we need a seperate corp for Furs, why not just add it to the trade company?

 

[Caesar Augustus]

No they aren't, and I think their settler values should be reduced there. I've also tried my best to discourage the Indian AI to build settlers, but it just keeps spamming them.

Hmmm, maybe it's spamming settlers because it doesn't really have anything else to do with all its food? It's not as smart as a human so it's probably using the whip stupidly, leaving it with the choice of either growing beyond it's health/happiness or turning its production toward settlers/workers.

 

[Leoreth]

That actually makes a lot of sense.

 

[civ_king]

That is way too much. Look at what you get from the other corps pr resource, why should Furs be that overpowered compared to anything else?

I also dont understand why we need a seperate corp for Furs, why not just add it to the trade company?

Trading company has a total of 56 resources on the map at 0.25+1 apiece whereas there are 16 furs in the game, there are 24 Silk Route resources at 0.5+1.5 apiece, cereal w/ 54 @0.37 apiece, Sushi w/ 90 @0.25 apiece, Oil w/ 22 @2.5 apiece, minerals w/ 65 @0.62 apiece.

Sure, lets just add fur to Trading Company considering all the countries involved except Russia are with the trading company.

 

[Leoreth]

The trading company can only appear in the Caribbean, South Africa and South Asia, so adding fur to it doesn't make much sense. I'll add another corporation when I add Orthodoxy in 1.9 to keep the balance, and fur trade seems like an obvious motivation for one.

 

[civ_king]

The trading company can only appear in the Caribbean, South Africa and South Asia, so adding fur to it doesn't make much sense. I'll add another corporation when I add Orthodoxy in 1.9 to keep the balance, and fur trade seems like an obvious motivation for one.

That was exactly why I wanted fur corp, it takes up that slot and both fur and Orthodoxy benefit the Russians. Also for an Orthodoxy wonder
St. Michael's would work, there is also a model made for it.

 

[Linkman226]

Hagia Sophia? Hello?

 

[Leoreth]

Yeah, Hagia Sophia is going to be the Orthodox shrine.

Anyway, now that several wonders a religion bound and in general not accessible to anyone, what do you think of double wonder effects? Or should each wonder be unique in its effect?

I'm asking because I need to come up with effects for the Blue Mosque and the Red Fort before I can add them. Does anybody have an idea?

Also, I think the full Ottoman UHV will be the following:
- have four wonders in your capital in 1550 AD
- control x% of the world's area in 1650 AD
- have the largest military power in the world in 1750 AD

(1) should encourage you to move your capital to Kostantiniyye because the Theodosian Walls and Hagia Sophia give you a head start. The other wonders are intended to be Topkapi Palace and the Blue Mosque, but I don't want to require that. They should still be the best choice usually.
(2) Should have x set so that you reach it when you control the Ottoman empire at its largest extent plus some of its ambitions (Austria or Persia).

 

[Cosmos1985]

Trading company has a total of 56 resources on the map at 0.25+1 apiece whereas there are 16 furs in the game, there are 24 Silk Route resources at 0.5+1.5 apiece, cereal w/ 54 @0.37 apiece, Sushi w/ 90 @0.25 apiece, Oil w/ 22 @2.5 apiece, minerals w/ 65 @0.62 apiece.

Sure, lets just add fur to Trading Company considering all the countries involved except Russia are with the trading company.

I dont understand, are those numbers a reason why Furs should be 2 or 3 g. pr. resource, just because there is less of them on the map? Is Furs really as valuable and essential as oil?

 

[Tomorrow's Dawn]

Historically, there have been some major resources that have been highly sought after and have had wars fought over:

I don't really think Furs but four specific resources that come to mind are Silk, Spice, Salt & Oil.

1) Silk is already represented with the inclusion of the Silk Road in-game.
2) Spice is somewhat represented in the Dutch UHV conditions.
Someone posted a Silk Road map in one of these threads and the sea lanes actually were supposed to represent the Spice Trade
(Doubtless Silk must have been transported as well but the Spice was more important on the seas because of food preservation.)

I thought about molasses & sugarcane in the Atlantic slave trade triangle but we can save that for the Europe revision.

What we're missing is Oil & Salt. And especially Oil while we're still on the topic of Asia.

Salt is historically important & continues to be in North Africa/Sahara
as it's necessary to life and important for the desert-dwelling citizens in those regions.
Salt roads were also prominent in Europe in pre-history/Bronze Age as well.

I feel like we don't have as much to represent modern incarnations of several of the countries that have been revamped in the mod.
Might I suggest an equivalent of the Trading Company for the nations in the Arab sphere of influence/other petroleum producing countries?
I'm referring to OPEC in specific and it could have to do with Oil.
Arabia currently doesn't have as much clout in-game as it should in the Modern Age.

 

[Leoreth]

There is the Oil Industry corporation already ...

 

[Tomorrow's Dawn]

Really?

Then again, I've only played a democracy once (Maya) so I guess that's why I've overlooked it.

 

[Tigranes]

There is something about Civ4 Religions that bothered me all the time -- they all have the same effect and act the same way. We went a long way in RFC Universe to put capital U for civs -- UP, UU, UB, UHV... Religions are greater that 1 single civilization and it could be fun to make them unique, with unique shrines, unique missionaries, unique religious buildings and unique effects with advantages/disadvantages. RFCE went a little in this direction but there is a room for more "uniqueness", especially for the mods without Faith Points.

Story goes that Indian Revolt of 1857-59 was sparked when Hindu and Muslim Sipahis learned about oil from Pigs and Cows used in the new rifles of British Army -- Hindus got outraged over the cows, Muslims over the pigs. Religions are so unique and there is so much room for creativity when you think how to provide them with unique flavor and unique effect. What do you think?

 

[J. pride]

Story goes that Indian Revolt of 1857-59 was sparked when Hindu and Muslim Sipahis learned about oil from Pigs and Cows used in the new rifles of British Army -- Hindus got outraged over the cows, Muslims over the Pigs. Religions are so unique and there is so much room for creativity when you think how to provide them with unique flavor and unique effect. What do you think?

I like the idea, especially the part with different religion getting different bonuses with resources?

 

[civ_king]

I was thinking maybe we could have regional powers, for example South, East and Southeast Asia get syncretism which allows culture from non-state religions

EDIT:

Hagia Sophia? Hello?

I said "...for an Orthodoxy wonder..." not for the Shrine, the Hagia Sophia was obviously going to be the Shrine.

 

[Tigranes]

When I first saw 600 AD Arabs from Sudan attacking Byzantine Egypt I thought it should belong to the "Look what happened thread" I understand that you just WANT Ai to take over the Egypt 100% of the time -- but why use such unrealistic and unhistorical approach? Numerical advantage and deserting units must be enough for Arabia, or I am missing something?

 

[Caesar Augustus]

- control x% of the world's area in 1650 AD

I think an interesting alternative to that would be control x% of the world's Islamic population. Obviously the % should be high enough to encourage conquering those parts of the Islamic world that can support a big population. My rationale behind this would be distinguishing the Ottomans from the other UHVs and discouraging a gamey approach like settling the Sahara, as a well-placed city there plus a Great Artist would probably cover as much territory as any amount of conquest in the Balkans or Persia.

 

[Caesar Augustus]

I'm asking because I need to come up with effects for the Blue Mosque and the Red Fort before I can add them. Does anybody have an idea?

I should really decide everything I want to say before I make a post. Anyway, here's a thought or two regarding those wonders.

Perhaps the Blue Mosque could add health to Islamic buildings? Kind of appropriate given the way Ottoman mosques included soup kitchens and baths. My only concern is that this would become kind of OP in the hands of the Arabs or anyone who controlled the Spiral Minaret and/or La Mezquita. But hey, if the Ottomans let the Arabs beat them to the Blue Mosque then that's nobody's fault but their own.

Another option would be to give additional gold per specialist, either in that city or all cities, to represent the way major Ottoman Mosques became favored beneficiaries of zakat (tithing) from the upper classes. I mostly suggest this because a lot of the Islamic wonders are more dependent on Islam being present than is true of other religions.

As far as the Red Fort, I think it should be looked at in the context of giving a slight differentiation between the Forbidden Palace and Topkapi Palace, as all 3 were seats of government for their respective nations. I think each (if not already) should be limited to being built in capital cities, should have a slightly lower maintenance reduction, and some other effect specific to themselves. Like the Red Fort could decrease instability from multiple religions, Topkapi Palace could decrease instability from expansion, and the Forbidden Palace could decrease instability from lack of traded goods, for a few options. It would be easy enough to ensure that Red Fort goes to the Mughals by making it require Hinduism and putting it far enough into the tech tree that India and Indonesia aren't particularly likely to beat the Mughals there, but I'm not sure how you'd go about ensuring they don't end up with both the Red Fort and Topkapi.

 

[Leoreth]

When I first saw 600 AD Arabs from Sudan attacking Byzantine Egypt I thought it should belong to the "Look what happened thread" I understand that you just WANT Ai to take over the Egypt 100% of the time -- but why use such unrealistic and unhistorical approach? Numerical advantage and deserting units must be enough for Arabia, or I am missing something?

Are you talking about Arabia flipping Egypt? The reason for that isn't that Arabia is too weak to take, but that they often simply didn't bother, which usually resulted in an Arab-free Africa and the Arabian civ settling dozens of cities on the Arabian peninsula instead. Given how early the Arabs conquered Egypt, that's fine.

I think an interesting alternative to that would be control x% of the world's Islamic population. Obviously the % should be high enough to encourage conquering those parts of the Islamic world that can support a big population. My rationale behind this would be distinguishing the Ottomans from the other UHVs and discouraging a gamey approach like settling the Sahara, as a well-placed city there plus a Great Artist would probably cover as much territory as any amount of conquest in the Balkans or Persia.

Good idea, the only problem is that it gives no incentive to expand into Europe. And we can always exclude Sahara exploits by making floodplain-less desert tiles not count

I should really decide everything I want to say before I make a post. Anyway, here's a thought or two regarding those wonders.

Perhaps the Blue Mosque could add health to Islamic buildings? Kind of appropriate given the way Ottoman mosques included soup kitchens and baths. My only concern is that this would become kind of OP in the hands of the Arabs or anyone who controlled the Spiral Minaret and/or La Mezquita. But hey, if the Ottomans let the Arabs beat them to the Blue Mosque then that's nobody's fault but their own.

Another option would be to give additional gold per specialist, either in that city or all cities, to represent the way major Ottoman Mosques became favored beneficiaries of zakat (tithing) from the upper classes. I mostly suggest this because a lot of the Islamic wonders are more dependent on Islam being present than is true of other religions.

As far as the Red Fort, I think it should be looked at in the context of giving a slight differentiation between the Forbidden Palace and Topkapi Palace, as all 3 were seats of government for their respective nations. I think each (if not already) should be limited to being built in capital cities, should have a slightly lower maintenance reduction, and some other effect specific to themselves. Like the Red Fort could decrease instability from multiple religions, Topkapi Palace could decrease instability from expansion, and the Forbidden Palace could decrease instability from lack of traded goods, for a few options. It would be easy enough to ensure that Red Fort goes to the Mughals by making it require Hinduism and putting it far enough into the tech tree that India and Indonesia aren't particularly likely to beat the Mughals there, but I'm not sure how you'd go about ensuring they don't end up with both the Red Fort and Topkapi.

Not bad. Currently my ideas were the following:

Blue Mosque (Engineering, Music, Islam): either no city unhappiness OR no unhappiness from using forced labor
Red Fort (Engineering, Philosophy, Islam): +3 free specialists (stolen from SoI)

I've already changed Topkapi Palace to:
Topkapi Palace (Civil Service, Islam): can draft two extra units per turn

 

[civ_king]

Can you make it so every tile producing 1 or less combined hammers+commerce+food does not affect stability? I think it is silly that Marshes affect stability along with tundra and ice (and non-floodplain desert).