Current (SVN) development discussion thread

[Leoreth]

Why exactly? If you expand to useless areas, you have to pay for it. It's not as if it would matter when they're historical for you.

 

[Tigranes]

Are you talking about Arabia flipping Egypt? The reason for that isn't that Arabia is too weak to take, but that they often simply didn't bother, which usually resulted in an Arab-free Africa and the Arabian civ settling dozens of cities on the Arabian peninsula instead. Given how early the Arabs conquered Egypt, that's fine.

Flipping is fine. When I refused the flip those Arabs came after my Egyptian cities from Sudan, which is kinda silly. Can we please make it so that all the early Arabs come from Arabia? If the Egypt in the war maps of Arabia they will feel the urge to fight for it.

We could come up with some Fatimid-like northern Africa civ (possibly the reborn Arabia).

What was the story behind including Korea? There so many civs that deserve being included before Korea which never went beyond being the local power. This is a global mod and IMO the first test for civ being included must be if it ever went beyond being a local power. Civ must somehow represent the Continent/Subcontinent (like Inca), dominate the continent at some point (Japan) or go beyond the Continent (Dutch).

I see that you are planning to include Seljuks at some point. How about some Turkic Khaganate instead? We need some Steppe Empire before the Mongols. Turkic Khaganate could represent many different Steppe Eurasian Empires: Rouran Khaganate, Gokturks, Bulgars, Khazars, etc.

And finally it is a little unrealistic to see Keshiks appear after Mongols raze Russian city for example. It is true that defeated nations must be contributing to Mongol Army. But not Keshiks! How about some generic Horseman or UU of the defeated nation (when historically appropriate). This way Mongol ruler can see who is Tatar(keshik) and who is not.

 

[Leoreth]

So you refuse the flip, and Arabian units appear at Egypt's southern border?

Korea is in a) because it's a BtS civ that made including it very easy from the perspective of art etc. b) to add some complexity to the China/Japan dynamic and c) it didn't hurt the game.

While a Turkic Khaganate would be good as well, the Seljuks are more of a means to an end, specifically breaking the Arabian dominance over the Middle East and clearing things up for the Mongols and the arriving Ottomans. It's hard to make a civ that represents the whole span of Turkish civilization do that as well.

And the Mongol UP rather represents the fact that native Mongolians join your army after you won a victory. I agree that this looks a little silly in faraway places like Russia ... maybe we should replace the Keshiks with Horse Archers outside of Asia?


By the way, did someone run some Ottoman starts recently? I'm asking because in mine Byzantium was always collapsed, so it seems they went from "a little too stable" to "a little too unstable". Another solution would be to give them a respawn limited to Thrace and Greece.

 

[Caesar Augustus]

Good idea, the only problem is that it gives no incentive to expand into Europe. And we can always exclude Sahara exploits by making floodplain-less desert tiles not count

Excluding the desert tiles would, I think, overcomplicate the UHV. Plus, it would also effect the Caucasus, Crimea, and a bit of Persia, which I think we should be encouraging anyway. That said, I don't think it would give absolutely no reason to go into Europe. Once you've conquered the Middle East and Egypt, the most obvious solution would be to go for Persia, but Europe offers a much higher potential population density so getting and converting some of Europe would be helpful. Besides, even if you wanted to encourage a bit of expansionism in Europe, I don't think you'd want it to go much beyond Vienna and a Russian city or two, which probably wouldn't give tons of territory either.

Not bad. Currently my ideas were the following:

Blue Mosque (Engineering, Music, Islam): either no city unhappiness OR no unhappiness from using forced labor
Red Fort (Engineering, Philosophy, Islam): +3 free specialists (stolen from SoI)

I've already changed Topkapi Palace to:
Topkapi Palace (Civil Service, Islam): can draft two extra units per turn

Between your two suggestions for the Blue Mosque I like the second one better. As far as the Red Fort, it's fine if kind of generic. Whatever city has it is going to be absolutely BEASTLY regarding the output of GPs, though, especially if it does end up in a high population potential city like Delhi, Lahore, or Karachi. If that existed and I were playing the Ottomans, I would absolutely go straight for that instead of Topkapi, that's for sure. Can the specialists be anything? If so, 3 engineers would go a long way to correcting Constantinople's production difficulties.

Regarding Topkapi, I don't generally make much use of drafting so I don't really have an opinion on that one.

 

[Leoreth]

The specialists can be anything as long as you have the slots for it (so the wonder itself provides no specialist slots). It should also expire quite early, because it would become rather overpowered in the Industrial Era for the reasons you just mentioned.

 

[Tigranes]

So you refuse the flip, and Arabian units appear at Egypt's southern border?

Yes, that's exactly what happened. Was it your intention?

Also why do you use that gray looking cross for catholic religion? The original mod had a good selection -- it really helps to keep the old Brown Christianity symbol for Catholics and and some white reformed cross for Protestants. By the way in my American game I had no missionary of any kind. Is this another your intention?

And finally your fellow Germans will be upset with you keeping Wien as a capital of Germany in 20th Century. How about this: if AI Germany decides to stay Catholic keep Wien as capital, otherwise move it (like with Ottomans) to Berlin (or any city already built around Berlin's tile)? "Berlin ist mehr ein Weltteil als eine Stadt"

P.S. With the Red Fort would be more interesting to give 1 specialist per town in the fat cross, like in RFCE.

 

[Leoreth]

Nope, but I think I know the reason for this: part of the Arabian units spawn in Cairo, and I don't check if the player refuses the flip, which likely pushes the units to a random nearby tile. I'll fix this.

Yeah, I already have plans to replace the Christian religion symbols. But since I have to edit the icons anyway when I add Orthodoxy, I'll wait until then.

Same for the Germans: Berlin will be the capital of the upcoming Prussian/German civ so no reason to bother with it now.

 

[AOS9001]

By the way, did someone run some Ottoman starts recently? I'm asking because in mine Byzantium was always collapsed, so it seems they went from "a little too stable" to "a little too unstable". Another solution would be to give them a respawn limited to Thrace and Greece.

Agreed. Byzantium always is dead by 1000 AD in my recent games, collapsed for some reason or another. It's reminding me of early RFC:E. And a European-only respawn for Byzantium would be historic, the Palaiologans lost what they had in Anatolia shortly after they re-took Constantinople.

 

[civ_king]

Why exactly? If you expand to useless areas, you have to pay for it. It's not as if it would matter when they're historical for you.

Sometimes you wind up with tiles here and there from how culture expands which doesn't match with stability areas

 

[Tigranes]

How many Religions are there going to be at the end? 2 Christian Faiths are enough, IMO, otherwise we would need to include historically significant Shia Islam as well...

 

[civ_king]

How many Religions are there going to be at the end? 2 Christian Faiths are enough, IMO, otherwise we would need to include historically significant Shia Islam as well...

Orthodoxy affects Russia, Byzantines and a respawned Greece, how many does Shia Islam affect

 

[J. pride]

Orthodoxy affects Russia, Byzantines and a respawned Greece, how many does Shia Islam affect

Shiite Islam affects Iran, re spawned Iraq, and also note that the Egyptians and the Mughals can go either way with Shiite or Sunni Islam because if Saladin had not conquered Egypt or was a shiite there could have been Shiite Islam; that is a good bit of alternate history for those that like that aspect of the game. Well some of you might say that it only affects two-three countries in the game, well Zoroastarianism only affects Early Persia, Toaism and Confucianism only affect China, and Orthodoxy for all its worth only affects two countries. There are several other reasons for Shiite Islam as well (I am not arguing that any of of the other religions should be taken out only that Shiite Islam should not be cut off when it represents a very similar to almost same purpose)

-It can help/diversify the UHV, UP, culture and various buildings in Middle East. Much like how China has Taoism (and Confucianism) added to diversify the country and facilitate in its new UHV, Shiite Islam can offer similar situations in Persia, Arabia, Mughals and the Ottomans. As already demonstrated in Synthesis, a Shiite based Uhv is perfect for Iran.

-Shiite Islam historically is present in significant minorities all over the Middle East (including Egypt, Arabia, Iraq, Iran, Pakistan and even India); and these minorities can facilitate the weakening of some states and become a hindrance to consolidate their power. This can be applied to late Arabia (by having some sort of religous unrest which along with the Mongol invasion will lead to their demise), Ottomans (who faced significant problems with the Qizilbash and the Alevis), Mughals etc.

-Shiite Islam much like Reformation can be added to stimulate war in the game particularly between the Shia Iran and the Sunni Ottomans and the Mughals. Secondary conflicts can also occur between Egypt and Arabia (Fatimid-Abbasid Wars) if Egypt turns out to be Shiite. The first conflict was rather significant and Shiite Islam would be perfect for such a thing.

-The way Shiite Islam is added in Synthesis has no real drawbacks ; the only "wacky" thing that can happen is that Egypt has a 20% chance of becoming Shiite but this can be a great alternate history. So I don't see a reason why it shouldn't be added since it will help the game into some aspects; and there is also the fact that Christianity is divided in three demonstrations ...., and there are already religions present that are only applicable towards one or two civs ( like Taoism, Zoroastarianism, and Orthodoxy if added)

Lastly if you want to see how i propose on adding Shiite Islam just look at Project Synthesis; you will see what im talking about with no real drawbacks as what Linkman has done over there represent Shiite Islam perfectly, balanced and makes the Middle East into a better gameplay experience.

By the way, did someone run some Ottoman starts recently? I'm asking because in mine Byzantium was always collapsed, so it seems they went from "a little too stable" to "a little too unstable". Another solution would be to give them a respawn limited to Thrace and Greece.

I suggest either one of the two:

-Give Byzantium a new UP that prevents collapse of cities in the core (which includes Northern Anatolia, Thrace and Greece)

-I like how you have to prevent Byzantium from collapsing in the current version and I think that it is fun and challenging; so what I recommend is that the Byzantinians get a human style collapse where they can retain Greece and Constantinople. It would be reccommended that their stability revert to 0 afterwards or else theyll just collapse again.

 

[Tomorrow's Dawn]

Shiite Islam affects Iran, re spawned Iraq, and also note that the Egyptians and the Mughals can go either way with Shiite or Sunni Islam because if Saladin had not conquered Egypt or was a shiite there could have been Shiite Islam; that is a good bit of alternate history for those that like that aspect of the game. Well some of you might say that it only affects two-three countries in the game, well Zoroastarianism only affects Early Persia, Toaism and Confucianism only affect China, and Orthodoxy for all its worth only affects two countries. There are several other reasons for Shiite Islam as well (I am not arguing that any of of the other religions should be taken out only that Shiite Islam should not be cut off when it represents a very similar to almost same purpose)

Just wanted to correct two statements but otherwise I also throw my support behind the inclusion of Shia Islam,
mostly because Islam itself is not a monolithic religion and it would be terribly unfortunate were it represented that way.

Zoroastrianism did make it as far as Rome, with cults venerating Mithra (a Yazata of the Zoroastrian religion) taking root there and becoming quite popular. Taoism (and Chinese folk religion) have also left their marks on Corea & Japan but much of it to me appears to be kind of like how Westerners treat Greek/Roman gods. Confucianism isn't really a reiligion per se, but more of a kind of philosophy and way of life. The Coreans readily adopted Confucianism and centered much of their society around it, to the point where I'd say they took it farther than the Chinese. I do want to make the case in fact that the Coreans should start out as Confucian and with Confucian Missionaries instead of being Buddhist. Confucianism also greatly influenced early Japanese development and they later developed their own schools of Neo-Confucianism.

 

[J. pride]

Zoroastrianism did make it as far as Rome, with cults venerating Mithra (a Yazata of the Zoroastrian religion) taking root there and becoming quite popular. Taoism (and Chinese folk religion) have also left their marks on Corea & Japan but much of it to me appears to be kind of like how Westerners treat Greek/Roman gods. Confucianism isn't really a reiligion per se, but more of a kind of philosophy and way of life. The Coreans readily adopted Confucianism and centered much of their society around it, to the point where I'd say they took it farther than the Chinese. I do want to make the case in fact that the Coreans should start out as Confucian and with Confucian Missionaries instead of being Buddhist. Confucianism also greatly influenced early Japanese development and they later developed their own schools of Neo-Confucianism.

You are right, and it seems that I did try to undermine other religion for the quest of adding Shiite Islam , I probably gave you the impression that those religions did not spread beyond their borders but what i was try to point out was that they were not majority outside their respective region (with Zoroastarianism, Toaism and Orthodoxy). Also, by that account there are significant amount of Shia minority in places as far Nigeria (centerend in the states of Kano and Sokoto) and Indoneisa (western Sumatra and Aceh). As far as Confucianism is concerned, thanx for the enlightenment, did not know some of these facts (with Korea).

 

[Linkman226]

Shiite Islam affects Iran, re spawned Iraq, and also note that the Egyptians and the Mughals can go either way with Shiite or Sunni Islam because if Saladin had not conquered Egypt or was a shiite there could have been Shiite Islam; that is a good bit of alternate history for those that like that aspect of the game. Well some of you might say that it only affects two-three countries in the game, well Zoroastarianism only affects Early Persia, Toaism and Confucianism only affect China, and Orthodoxy for all its worth only affects two countries. There are several other reasons for Shiite Islam as well (I am not arguing that any of of the other religions should be taken out only that Shiite Islam should not be cut off when it represents a very similar to almost same purpose)

-It can help/diversify the UHV, UP, culture and various buildings in Middle East. Much like how China has Taoism (and Confucianism) added to diversify the country and facilitate in its new UHV, Shiite Islam can offer similar situations in Persia, Arabia, Mughals and the Ottomans. As already demonstrated in Synthesis, a Shiite based Uhv is perfect for Iran.

-Shiite Islam historically is present in significant minorities all over the Middle East (including Egypt, Arabia, Iraq, Iran, Pakistan and even India); and these minorities can facilitate the weakening of some states and become a hindrance to consolidate their power. This can be applied to late Arabia (by having some sort of religous unrest which along with the Mongol invasion will lead to their demise), Ottomans (who faced significant problems with the Qizilbash and the Alevis), Mughals etc.

-Shiite Islam much like Reformation can be added to stimulate war in the game particularly between the Shia Iran and the Sunni Ottomans and the Mughals. Secondary conflicts can also occur between Egypt and Arabia (Fatimid-Abbasid Wars) if Egypt turns out to be Shiite. The first conflict was rather significant and Shiite Islam would be perfect for such a thing.

-The way Shiite Islam is added in Synthesis has no real drawbacks ; the only "wacky" thing that can happen is that Egypt has a 20% chance of becoming Shiite but this can be a great alternate history. So I don't see a reason why it shouldn't be added since it will help the game into some aspects; and there is also the fact that Christianity is divided in three demonstrations ...., and there are already religions present that are only applicable towards one or two civs ( like Taoism, Zoroastarianism, and Orthodoxy if added)

Lastly if you want to see how i propose on adding Shiite Islam just look at Project Synthesis; you will see what im talking about with no real drawbacks as what Linkman has done over there represent Shiite Islam perfectly, balanced and makes the Middle East into a better gameplay experience.

In fact Egypt was ruled by Shias in the past (as I'm sure you're aware). Although this isn't my mod, I would encourage Shia inclusion.

 

[Tomorrow's Dawn]

You are right, and it seems that I did try to undermine other religion for the quest of adding Shiite Islam , I probably gave you the impression that those religions did not spread beyond their borders but what i was try to point out was that they were not majority outside their respective region (with Zoroastarianism, Toaism and Orthodoxy). Also, by that account there are significant amount of Shia minority in places as far Nigeria (centerend in the states of Kano and Sokoto) and Indoneisa (western Sumatra and Aceh). As far as Confucianism is concerned, thanx for the enlightenment, did not know some of these facts (with Korea).

No problem, believe me, I definitely want to see Shia Islam too.

 

[Linkman226]

I was playing with the liberation code yesterday, here's the original for your reference, if you plan on doing something with colonies and such:

PlayerTypes CvCity::getLiberationPlayer(bool bConquest) const
{
	if (isCapital())
	{
		return NO_PLAYER;
	}

	//Rhye - start comment
	/*
	//for (int iPlayer = 0; iPlayer < MAX_CIV_PLAYERS; ++iPlayer) //Rhye
	for (int iPlayer = 0; iPlayer < NUM_MAJOR_PLAYERS; ++iPlayer) //Rhye
	{
		CvPlayer& kLoopPlayer = GET_PLAYER((PlayerTypes)iPlayer);
		if (kLoopPlayer.isAlive() && kLoopPlayer.getParent() == getOwnerINLINE())
		{
			CvCity* pLoopCapital = kLoopPlayer.getCapitalCity();
			if (NULL != pLoopCapital)
			{
				if (pLoopCapital->area() == area())
				{
					return (PlayerTypes)iPlayer;
				}
			}
		}
	}

	CvPlayer& kOwner = GET_PLAYER(getOwnerINLINE());
	if (kOwner.canSplitEmpire() && kOwner.canSplitArea(area()->getID()))
	{
		PlayerTypes ePlayer = GET_PLAYER(getOwnerINLINE()).getSplitEmpirePlayer(area()->getID());

		if (NO_PLAYER != ePlayer)
		{
			if (GET_PLAYER(ePlayer).isAlive())
			{
				return ePlayer;
			}
		}
	}*/
	//Rhye - end comment

	PlayerTypes eBestPlayer = NO_PLAYER;
	int iBestValue = 0;

	int iTotalCultureTimes100 = countTotalCultureTimes100();

	//for (int iPlayer = 0; iPlayer < MAX_CIV_PLAYERS; ++iPlayer) //Rhye
	for (int iPlayer = 0; iPlayer < NUM_MAJOR_PLAYERS; ++iPlayer) //Rhye
	{
		CvPlayer& kLoopPlayer = GET_PLAYER((PlayerTypes)iPlayer);

		if (kLoopPlayer.isAlive())
		{
			if (kLoopPlayer.canReceiveTradeCity())
			{
				CvCity* pCapital = kLoopPlayer.getCapitalCity();
				if (NULL != pCapital)
				{
					int iCapitalDistance = ::plotDistance(getX_INLINE(), getY_INLINE(), pCapital->getX_INLINE(), pCapital->getY_INLINE());
					if (area() != pCapital->area())
					{
						iCapitalDistance *= 2;
					}

					int iCultureTimes100 = getCultureTimes100((PlayerTypes)iPlayer);

					if (bConquest)
					{
						if (iPlayer == getOriginalOwner())
						{
							iCultureTimes100 *= 3;
							iCultureTimes100 /= 2;
						}
					}

					if (GET_PLAYER((PlayerTypes)iPlayer).getTeam() == getTeam()
						|| GET_TEAM(GET_PLAYER((PlayerTypes)iPlayer).getTeam()).isVassal(getTeam())
						|| GET_TEAM(getTeam()).isVassal(GET_PLAYER((PlayerTypes)iPlayer).getTeam()))
					{
						iCultureTimes100 *= 2;
						iCultureTimes100 = (iCultureTimes100 + iTotalCultureTimes100) / 2;
					}

					int iValue = std::max(100, iCultureTimes100) / std::max(1, iCapitalDistance);

					if (iValue > iBestValue)
					{
						iBestValue = iValue;
						eBestPlayer = (PlayerTypes)iPlayer;
					}
				}
			}
		}
	}

	if (NO_PLAYER != eBestPlayer)
	{
		if (getOwnerINLINE() == eBestPlayer)
		{
			return NO_PLAYER;
		}

		for (int iPlot = 0; iPlot < NUM_CITY_PLOTS; ++iPlot)
		{
			CvPlot* pLoopPlot = ::plotCity(getX_INLINE(), getY_INLINE(), iPlot);

			if (NULL != pLoopPlot)
			{
				if (pLoopPlot->isVisibleEnemyUnit(eBestPlayer))
				{
					return NO_PLAYER;
				}
			}
		}
	}

	return eBestPlayer;
}

So perhaps you could just make colonies liberated countries like in regular BTS?

 

[J. pride]

Edited

 

[Leoreth]

I don't think using the liberation system would benefit us in this situation (although I'd love to liberate entire civilizations if they're dead and I'm controlling their core, instead of independents, but that's another issue).

If we make a colony spawn, it's better to use the usual RiseAndFall mechanics we have for that, plus special effects like vassalization discussed earlier.

 

[Kubko]

Bug: Nieuw Amsterdawn(New York) didn't flip to americans on their spawn. Also the english got trade route event for mughals, but the mughal culture is crushing english culture