Current v1.13 Development Discussion

[Leoreth]

Can independents have the Japanese UP or something similiar to make them on pair with other civs tech level?

They do, they're synched with barbarians who receive techs depending on the general development of the world. But maybe I should revisit this because it seems the effect is deliberately weak to keep barbarians behind in tech, which isn't really desired for independents.

Still, it's kind of hard to balance because independents exist all around the world, so having them on par with the tech leader might hurt other civs.

Should AI treat all wonder values as zero that they cant build? Is it possible to just lower the value it attaches to it? Like only 25% of earlier? It will give other civs a boost when they get the wonder and the Ai original owner might be able to build it later.

I don't understand your reasoning here. How does it give other civs a boost?

When deciding what to research next, the AI is mostly making a short term decision (the AI can plan a couple of techs in advance, but still recalculates often enough to take changes in state religion or civics into account). In this context a wonder that is impossible to build is literally worthless.

 

[LacsiraxAriscal]

That maybe because the Independents hadn't acquired Feudalism yet, thus the Archers. On collapse, the city is traded to Indie/Barbs and a few defenders are generated, and the unit type depends on the corresponding technology those civs have.

What exactly did the SVN update do, then? I thought the point was now they would retain the units they collapsed with.

 

[sebzilla]

They do, they're synched with barbarians who receive techs depending on the general development of the world. But maybe I should revisit this because it seems the effect is deliberately weak to keep barbarians behind in tech, which isn't really desired for independents.

Still, it's kind of hard to balance because independents exist all around the world, so having them on par with the tech leader might hurt other civs.

Independents should be roughly on par with full civs, IMO. You've got natives and barbarians to fulfill the low-tech non-civ role.

 

[Leoreth]

What is a full civ though? Being on par with England and Congo are two different things.

 

[sebzilla]

What is a full civ though? Being on par with England and Congo are two different things.

True. I suppose you'd want them to be comparable to civs in their general area, which might mean splitting the indies geographically rather than randomly as they seem to be now. Indy Europeans representing minor states need European tech levels, and so on. That's getting loser and closer to the minor civ realm, though.

 

[Shadow Warlord]

Still, that would mean one indy civ per continent/region, which takes up more civ slots. RFCE/SOI only ever did a max of four indy civs, but they were on a much smaller scale than DOC.

 

[AdrienIer]

But the point of independents is also that if you declare on one indie city all the others won't jump at you, that's why the independents were spread out in RFC. They're not a unified state with a unified war/peace situation, and they would be if they were split geographically

 

[Leoreth]

True. I suppose you'd want them to be comparable to civs in their general area, which might mean splitting the indies geographically rather than randomly as they seem to be now. Indy Europeans representing minor states need European tech levels, and so on. That's getting loser and closer to the minor civ realm, though.

That's what I meant with my civ slots comment. Right now, we have to make do with two independent civilizations.

 

[LacsiraxAriscal]

Please nerf Chinaaaaaa

Seriously, grenadiers. Grenadiers.

 

[Tomorrow's Dawn]

Please nerf Chinaaaaaa

Seriously, grenadiers. Grenadiers.

I agree in principle for 3000 BC, like I mentioned before.
The AI could take a little hit, especially on that setting, but the 600 AD one is perfectly manageable.

However, I want to point out you're exacerbating the situation by playing on a slower speed.
The AI settles Specialists into their cities and the bonuses aren't different from Normal setting, IIRC:
Having flat +4 Hammers and +6 Science per turn for 50 turns compared to 20 turns is going to make a big difference,
and this is one of the reasons why people on the vanilla boards say Marathon/Epic is like playing two levels lower.

 

[Tomorrow's Dawn]

Sorry for the double-post but I just wanted to illustrate the situation with the vassals.

This is an ideal situation where I'd want to capitulate China.
I had numerous war-successes, didn't lose a single unit, and was ready to take Beijing.
It would be ideal at this stage, if I were able to capitulate them, which is already harder than vanilla BtS,
which I went back and did a quick test game of vanilla on Monarch to test out; the AI capitulates at varying stages,
but usually around 1-3 cities and varying with the number of units I killed in their stacks.
(Fun fact: Catherine capitulated around one city )

In vanilla RFC this was present to some degree, though it could be harder.
Going back to how it was in vanilla RFC seems like a good bet for me.

 

[Novicenoble]

Please nerf Chinaaaaaa

Seriously, grenadiers. Grenadiers.

So much very historical China

It seems like China AI plays much better than me...

 

[Power_of_Beer]

Re: China in 3000 BC start. Found them like this in one game (svn version right before Japan's buffs)

Spoiler :

However, I want to point out you're exacerbating the situation by playing on a slower speed.
The AI settles Specialists into their cities and the bonuses aren't different from Normal setting, IIRC:
Having flat +4 Hammers and +6 Science per turn for 50 turns compared to 20 turns is going to make a big difference,
and this is one of the reasons why people on the vanilla boards say Marathon/Epic is like playing two levels lower.

But it's the same for all bonuses. If everything is scaled up correctly, the differences should be minimal. However, the effective movement difference per game year is still there and that plays a big role.
I have the feeling that it's the tech diffusion mechanism, and the reduced tech penalty in ancient times. Really all ancient civs can now tech so much faster (India with Feudalism in 100 AD is no rarity).

 

[youtien]

AI has bonus than players, so if you want to nerf China, just nerf AI to be on par with players.

 

[youtien]

In my Italian 3000 BC game, AI China discovered liberalism after my spawn.

In fact, I think it's reasonable if 1. China didn't collapse as in real history 2. China didn't have much barbs problem as in real history. Maybe China need some serious opponent before Mongols.

 

[Power_of_Beer]

Well, it's not only China. India and also usually Persia are very advanced by 600AD. Also all civs advance more quickly in general no matter the starting scenario (Optics in 1200 for example). I think its tech diffusion and a not so well balanced tech penalty from population.

 

[Bernd-das-Brot]

How exactly is the tech penalty managed in the actual svn?

Is it a pop-based penalty and if yes how is it calculated?

Or does it still work this way (from the v1.12 readme):

# Tech leaders receive a penalty through additional technology costs depending on how far they are ahead

 

[andrewv42]

In my Italian 3000 BC game, AI China discovered liberalism after my spawn.

In fact, I think it's reasonable if 1. China didn't collapse as in real history 2. China didn't have much barbs problem as in real history. Maybe China need some serious opponent before Mongols.

I agree.

There should be a Jurchen civ.

 

[Tomorrow's Dawn]

I agree.

There should be a Jurchen civ.

I don't know why everyone is so bent on including Jurchens.

If we want real pressure on China, make the first instance of Mongols into Xiongnu (who share some degree of ethno-linguistic continuity) and have the Genghis conquest be their respawn.

 

[BarbarianX]

I don't know why everyone is so bent on including Jurchens.

If we want real pressure on China, make the first instance of Mongols into Xiongnu (who share some degree of ethno-linguistic continuity) and have the Genghis conquest be their respawn.

Or add the Gökturks.