Current v1.13 Development Discussion

[Shadow Warlord]

I took a look at the new map changes and india seems so different now. There's like a whole new row of cities we can put in. I'll need to play India & Mughals soon to see how their games work out now. Indochina looks better now too, and the western part of Phillipines being turned to Islands is probably better too (those islands are now probably more akin to the infamous "Chinese-claimed South China Sea" though).

2 questions:

1. It looks like there is still a sugar under Ayutthaya's spot. Perhaps that can be moved so both Angkor and Ayutthaya can make use of it rather than just Angkor?

2. If Varanasi is no loner pre-placed for India, should they get an extra starting settler to make up the difference?

 

[Leoreth]

1. It looks like there is still a sugar under Ayutthaya's spot. Perhaps that can be moved so both Angkor and Ayutthaya can make use of it rather than just Angkor?

Yeah, that should work.

2. If Varanasi is no loner pre-placed for India, should they get an extra starting settler to make up the difference?

No, I think India can be slowed down a bit. I've already lifted their extra settler costs so it should even out.

In general though India now has a lot of stable territory to settle. Maybe the Deccan should be removed from its stable area now (but that means I have to come up with a solution for how to expand it for modern India). I'm reluctant to make city spawns, but the number of barbarian spawns probably should increase as well to reflect how hard it was to gain control further south.

 

[citis]

Spawning barbarian cities AND cheap settlers? India will become overpowered again. Also, this might has a bad side-effect for Tamils.

 

[Leoreth]

Barbarian units, no cities. I have made no change to India's settler production since the recent change. That update also scaled settler costs with growth costs so India is still behind most others here.

 

[Leoreth]

New commit:
- barbarians spawn in the Deccan
- corrected revealed area to the Indians
- new Indian UP: Purity: one extra happiness for every two excess health
- removed health from Wheat, Rice, Corn, Fish, Clam, Crabs
- Harbors now give extra health from Fish, Clam, Crabs, instead of Lighthouses

 

[FinalLegendZero]

- new Indian UP: Purity: one extra happiness for every two excess health

I really fail to see the logic in this. Whenever I'd play as the Indians and go for the UHV, it was never happiness that was the limiting factor for my cities - it was health. And that was with controlling every health resource on the subcontinent and abusing their UP. With this, their health problem is even worse (which is worsened even more with the recent nerf to grains and seafood), while offering a benefit that, due to the above, can't really be benefited from.

 

[Leoreth]

Yeah, I'm also still unsure about this. How about a reverse effect, trading two excess happiness for health?

 

[FinalLegendZero]

Possibly. It would most likely take some playtesting to see if that brings any noticeable benefits - of if it's too powerful (unlikely, but you never know).

 

[agentxorange]

By removing the health bonus from a lot of the resources in India that will definitely hurt their growth in cities like Varanasi and Pataliaputra, but not necessarily in other spots (since there are not too many other flood plain areas). However, I've never found India to hurt on happiness mid game, but they can hurt on it early game (with no access to Calendar). After Calendar they tend to have more than enough happiness in their cities.

I'd say it's a question of when the UP should have the greatest impact. If you want early game impact, the 2 happiness for 1 health would be good. If it's mid-late game then another UP might be better (the specialist one was never great then anyway).

 

[soul-breathing]

I think it may make the game out of balance while remove health from Wheat, Rice, Corn, Fish, Clam, Crabs. Especially for Ancient civs such as Egypt and Babylon, can hardly end the plague because of too less health. Also since now the coorporations give a lot of unhealth, it will also make the late game imbalance.

In fact, I think we need to take step to increase the number of health, such as introduce more health resource(lemon? cocoa bean? shrimp? vegetables?) to the game.

 

[Tigranes]

removed health from Wheat, Rice, Corn, Fish, Clam, Crabs

Just leaving my personal official protest. No, just no. There was nothing broken about it, so there is no need to fix it. This will be making a lot of resource trades useless. Stifling city growths with no additional fun in any department. Negative realism: animals are the only healthy thing for human diet? While whole grain and seafood is not? And next to no discussion or explanation even! Just take it or leave it attitude

 

[Imperator Knoedel]

Just leaving my personal official protest. No, just no. There was nothing broken about it, so there is no need to fix it. This will be making a lot of resource trades useless. Stifling city growths with no additional fun in any department. Negative realism: animals are the only healthy thing for human diet? While whole grain and seafood is not? And next to no discussion or explanation even! Just take it or leave it attitude

As a matter of fact there was a discussion about this. The reasoning is that there's currently too much health going around or something.

 

[Tigranes]

I can't think something this radical to have many supporters anyway. How can a resource like Wheat or Fish to become useless without corresponding building, but Pigs are fine? Too much health could be regulated by reducing effects of buildings, such as Granary. Storing 50% of food is already huge deal for this early building.

 

[agentxorange]

Uhhhh no it's not a bad change. In terms of game balance there is always too much health, in the normal game or any mods I've ever played. The only time it is ever really a problem is early game or during plagues. The food resources giving 3+ food to a tile is already really good anyway, they are far from useless.

I'm assuming Leoreth is already thinking of something to make trades more useful. Buffing/adding more corporations could be a solution, or adding buffs to certain buildings (shouldn't be Granary though, that building is already strong).

 

[citis]

New commit:
- barbarians spawn in the Deccan
- corrected revealed area to the Indians
- new Indian UP: Purity: one extra happiness for every two excess health
- removed health from Wheat, Rice, Corn, Fish, Clam, Crabs
- Harbors now give extra health from Fish, Clam, Crabs, instead of Lighthouses

Aztecs now are in even worse position, making their 1st UHV almost undoable! Given that England and Japan know compass by 1520, that's what happenned:
England lost 1 health bonus (wheet).
Japan lost 1 (rice).
Aztecs lost 2 health bonuses (crab, fish).

Make floating gardens to have the same health bonuses like harbour. Historically, there was a lake there.
An alternative: additional floating gardens effect: +1 with corn, so aztecs are even with England and Japan.

On the other hand Euros have less pop points, which is good.

 

[citis]

Yeah, I'm also still unsure about this. How about a reverse effect, trading two excess happiness for health?

Maybe that's better. India has two religions and its UHV will make the player to build temples. Also after calendar there will be many hapiness resources. Thus there is excess hapiness in India.

Also this UP can simulate better Indian city development in late game. Historically euros couldn't develop in India well due to the environment (jungles, weather), while Indian people with the same resources could adapt and develop better.

 

[Fresol]

The problem of having excess can be solved simply by setting bonus for all civilizations to 0, can't it? I've always thought of the current situation of having different modifiers for each civilization as baseless.

 

[Tigranes]

Uhhhh no it's not a bad change. In terms of game balance there is always too much health, in the normal game or any mods I've ever played. The only time it is ever really a problem is early game or during plagues. The food resources giving 3+ food to a tile is already really good anyway, they are far from useless.

I'm assuming Leoreth is already thinking of something to make trades more useful. Buffing/adding more corporations could be a solution, or adding buffs to certain buildings (shouldn't be Granary though, that building is already strong).

Why should Wheat and Fish loose health and not Granary, but Pig and Deer keep it? Just adopt uniform approach then -- remove health bonus from Harbor, Granary and add Granary and Harbor bonuses to Supermarkets. This will generate exponential population growth after Refrigeration. Keep Grocer bonus to illustrate over importance of Spices, Wine and Sugar in earlier times. Nerf buildings not resources!

 

[Imperator Knoedel]

Nerf buildings not resources!

The problem with that is that newly founded cities with only one pop had ridiculously high excess health and happiness in the old system. Don't you think building infrastructure should be rewarded?

On that note, maybe we really should remove health from grain resources from the Granary, as it is already the most important building there is, and move it to the Market?

 

[Tigranes]

The problem with that is that newly founded cities with only one pop had ridiculously high excess health and happiness in the old system.

Which is affecting anything how? For Pop 1 city if I have 3 health or 10, what is the difference? The only global effect can be on stability, but this can be nerfed without demoting Wheat from proud fact of being a resource. Plus on later starts Granaries are free.

Look, the only difference between Wheat with Granary and Wheat without Granary is very limited time new city needs to build Granary anyway. My main concern is always the internal logic, game is really enjoyable when things do make sense, and it gets less so with every "flying tank" type of arrangement. Treating Wheat like Pigs makes sense. Letting Pigs to supply health without Granary, but barring Wheat from it creates a discord too large to swallow. Why opt for brute force solutions if a little thinking can produce more elegant way of getting around the things?

Plus this will make Sugar, Spice and Wine more important commodities. Grocer will become the first building with health as additional effect. And if Supermarket will grant health not only for Pigs and Deer, but also for Fish and Wheat -- cities will see dramatic growth just like in real life. From 1 bil to 7 bil in the matter of 50 years, while being under 1 bil for 6000 years of written history.