Current v1.13 Development Discussion
- Thread starter Leoreth
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I think that means it was Jungle before and it is both Jungle and Rainforest now.
Yes. This change is prompted by your report with English conquerors in the Andes. When looking at the code I realized that this situation did not occur previously because the jungle tiles there were preventing it.
Publicola
King
- Joined
- Apr 26, 2014
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- 759
Has anyone played a non-UHV game with the Harappans? I'd be curious to see how well their UP stacks up in the long haul, how they match up against other regional powers, and how long they're able to last. Might be fun to see them last all the way to the discovery of the New World, you know? Really throw some butterflies in the face of history.
Malchar
Prince
Hi, I just finished reading through the 1.13 development discussion. I have been following the mod on and off for many years, and I'm glad to see that it is still going stronger than ever. I have a few notes based on some of the changes in 1.13. Please forgive me if they dredge up a few older discussions, but I believe that these specific things have not already been discussed.
1. When you remapped Southeast Asia, it turns out that Vietnam is no longer in the core for Thai (and maybe Khmer as well). Was this intentional? Also, would anyone be willing to regenerate the stability maps for 1.13? I think that the map has changed since the last ones were made, and I'm afraid that I have no idea how to do it myself despite the fact that the code has generously been made available.
2. I like how embassies were removed because they seemed really wasteful, I didn't miss them or even realize that they were gone when I started playing again, and it was frequently much easier to just leave a scout in foreign territory anyway. Way back in the thread, you were discussing embassies and emissaries, and I thought that it would be cool if you just made an emissary unit. It would just be really inexpensive and function as a more modern "scout" unit that is simply designed to leave in another civ's territory to maintain contact. I mean, everyone is going to do it anyway, so we might as well make a unit for it? You could also just modify/rename the explorer unit to achieve the same goal. I know that it's just semantics, but it seems weird to have explorers wandering around the old world just to maintain contact with your neighbor, but if you renamed it to Emissary, then I think that it could still reasonably function as an explorer as well as a diplomat.
3. In light of the new culture border spreading mechanic, it seems as though the Vikings UHV of settling North America is no longer possible unless you build your capital in Ireland. Without putting my capital in Ireland, I'm short by about 10 turns, and that still involves settling Ireland with one of my starting settlers. This could be fixed if you add an aquatic resource on the ocean tile near Ireland that leads to Iceland because the culture always spreads to resources first. As it is now, it will spread to every possible coastal tile first before giving you any ocean tiles. There is also a lot of culture potentially "wasted" because the city prioritizes sending culture to the sheep tile in Britain, but then when the English spawn, all culture on Britain is lost so that England is allowed to settle their cities.
4. There are also a few more potential problems with the culture spread mechanic:
a. It seems like culture takes a lot longer to spread outward than it used to. This seems to be the problem with the Viking UHV. It's fine to prioritize the good tiles first, but for equivalency you should be able to control roughly the same total area as you were able to before.
b. If one civ's city takes over a tile from another civ's city, then correct me if I'm wrong, but it seems like the second city will never be able to take that tile back until it has taken all of the unclaimed tiles in it's first three rings? The city keeps prioritizing available tiles over ones that are already claimed, even if the city is outputting more culture than the city that it could potentially steal a tile from? I had this happen when I captured an independent city that was near a barbarian city. The independent city controlled a sheep resource in it's first ring, which was also the third ring of the barbarian city. When I captured the independent city, the sheep tile went to the barbarian city, and my new city just keeps expanding to every other possible tile instead of the sheep. It seems unreasonable to have to wait so long before I can steal a tile from the third ring of a barbarian city.
5. I like the changes to the health system. I actually picked up Babylon as my first civ since starting to play again, and I easily got the UHV on Normal without even realizing that any changes had been made to the health system. There was interesting gameplay as I decided how to achieve a reasonable level of health without going overboard. Also, I'm not sure why it's such a big deal to have some unhealthiness in your cities. It seems like most major cities that exist now and in the past would be considered unhealthy, and that's fine. The gameplay penalty is not particularly severe. I believe that unhealthiness makes you more susceptible to the plague, and that seems like an awesome additional factor to play around with. Do you want your cities to grow really big, or not? For once, perhaps both choices can be equally balanced.
1. When you remapped Southeast Asia, it turns out that Vietnam is no longer in the core for Thai (and maybe Khmer as well). Was this intentional? Also, would anyone be willing to regenerate the stability maps for 1.13? I think that the map has changed since the last ones were made, and I'm afraid that I have no idea how to do it myself despite the fact that the code has generously been made available.
2. I like how embassies were removed because they seemed really wasteful, I didn't miss them or even realize that they were gone when I started playing again, and it was frequently much easier to just leave a scout in foreign territory anyway. Way back in the thread, you were discussing embassies and emissaries, and I thought that it would be cool if you just made an emissary unit. It would just be really inexpensive and function as a more modern "scout" unit that is simply designed to leave in another civ's territory to maintain contact. I mean, everyone is going to do it anyway, so we might as well make a unit for it? You could also just modify/rename the explorer unit to achieve the same goal. I know that it's just semantics, but it seems weird to have explorers wandering around the old world just to maintain contact with your neighbor, but if you renamed it to Emissary, then I think that it could still reasonably function as an explorer as well as a diplomat.
3. In light of the new culture border spreading mechanic, it seems as though the Vikings UHV of settling North America is no longer possible unless you build your capital in Ireland. Without putting my capital in Ireland, I'm short by about 10 turns, and that still involves settling Ireland with one of my starting settlers. This could be fixed if you add an aquatic resource on the ocean tile near Ireland that leads to Iceland because the culture always spreads to resources first. As it is now, it will spread to every possible coastal tile first before giving you any ocean tiles. There is also a lot of culture potentially "wasted" because the city prioritizes sending culture to the sheep tile in Britain, but then when the English spawn, all culture on Britain is lost so that England is allowed to settle their cities.
4. There are also a few more potential problems with the culture spread mechanic:
a. It seems like culture takes a lot longer to spread outward than it used to. This seems to be the problem with the Viking UHV. It's fine to prioritize the good tiles first, but for equivalency you should be able to control roughly the same total area as you were able to before.
b. If one civ's city takes over a tile from another civ's city, then correct me if I'm wrong, but it seems like the second city will never be able to take that tile back until it has taken all of the unclaimed tiles in it's first three rings? The city keeps prioritizing available tiles over ones that are already claimed, even if the city is outputting more culture than the city that it could potentially steal a tile from? I had this happen when I captured an independent city that was near a barbarian city. The independent city controlled a sheep resource in it's first ring, which was also the third ring of the barbarian city. When I captured the independent city, the sheep tile went to the barbarian city, and my new city just keeps expanding to every other possible tile instead of the sheep. It seems unreasonable to have to wait so long before I can steal a tile from the third ring of a barbarian city.
5. I like the changes to the health system. I actually picked up Babylon as my first civ since starting to play again, and I easily got the UHV on Normal without even realizing that any changes had been made to the health system. There was interesting gameplay as I decided how to achieve a reasonable level of health without going overboard. Also, I'm not sure why it's such a big deal to have some unhealthiness in your cities. It seems like most major cities that exist now and in the past would be considered unhealthy, and that's fine. The gameplay penalty is not particularly severe. I believe that unhealthiness makes you more susceptible to the plague, and that seems like an awesome additional factor to play around with. Do you want your cities to grow really big, or not? For once, perhaps both choices can be equally balanced.
FinalLegendZero
Prince
- Joined
- Feb 27, 2013
- Messages
- 548
In regard to your concerns about the Vikings: when the Vikings research Compass, a single ocean tile between Iceland and the British Isles is converted to coast. Settling a city in Ireland or Scotland and expanding its borders is no longer necessary for that goal.
merijn_v1
Black Belt
I created a tool which directly creates stability maps in the game. The maps will be automatically updated to the version your in.
http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=540790
I have updated the Maps folder for the SEA changes, just give it a look. Vietnam is included in the Khmer and Thai historical areas, but not the core.
Either that or a diplomatic option for permanent contact. I'm still thinking about other aspects to make this more interesting though.
That it takes longer to cover all tiles is the main goal of the rule change. The Viking UHV is still winnable though.
There are two different aspects of culture that work completely separately:
1) if a city has enough culture to take control of a tile
2) if you have majority culture over all other players on a tile
Before the change, (1) worked in rings that spread with culture levels and is the only thing that has been changed. This potential control still expands to tiles controlled by other players (the interface does not display this because it is not really "the next covered tile") in the original order. So it's not covered last.
Malchar
Prince
Thanks for your quick responses! The map tool looks amazing. I didn't even realize that it existed. As for the Vikings, I feel silly now because I just noticed that a coastal tile spawns outside of Scotland at some point. I was actually able to beat the UHV goal without even using that coastal tile though. 
Malchar
Prince
When is the coastal tile off Scotland available?
I probably did it in the most inefficient way possible since I wasn't playing to that tile at all: I took southern Italy to spread Christianity to Ireland. I slaved every possible culture building in Ireland while researching to music. Once I got access to Iceland, I built culture there and settled Vinland in 1080. All the while, I thought that this was the "intended" method, since you basically get the first UHV for free in the process.
On that note, is the first UHV worded correctly? I achieved it by controlling Vibo Valentia in southern Italy. So Rome counts as a European civ in 1050? Rome (the city) and Milan are both controlled by someone else, so I don't see how I even have control of the Roman core anyway.
I probably did it in the most inefficient way possible since I wasn't playing to that tile at all: I took southern Italy to spread Christianity to Ireland. I slaved every possible culture building in Ireland while researching to music. Once I got access to Iceland, I built culture there and settled Vinland in 1080. All the while, I thought that this was the "intended" method, since you basically get the first UHV for free in the process.
On that note, is the first UHV worded correctly? I achieved it by controlling Vibo Valentia in southern Italy. So Rome counts as a European civ in 1050? Rome (the city) and Milan are both controlled by someone else, so I don't see how I even have control of the Roman core anyway.
I think controlling a core means having more cities in their core than you do. In that case, Rome or Italy (IDK which one is used, probably Rome because Italians start off with N. Italy as their core) have 0 cities in their core at the time since they both aren't in the game. I think that's the intended way to win the UHV because there's a historical area around there somewhere last I remember.
Some people conquer England which is what I do as well. I think that strategy will work better now with the English nerf.
MechatronicJazz
Prince
- Joined
- Aug 15, 2007
- Messages
- 316
I've played a couple. Harappans to Mughals is a fun game, and that's also pretty much when the Harappan game ends. They always capitulate to the Mughals as AI, but I don't think you can do that as a human player and it would be hard to fight them back since they flip your core.
I've had fun bee-lining to found Buddhism as the Harappans and then aggressively spreading it. Managed to spread throughout a rather large Persian empire and almost got to Europe. I also play on lower difficulty levels. I'm not sure what it would be like on higher levels.
The key to Harappan survival is owning Bhopal. That iron resource is important and will permanently weaken the Indians. I think the Harappan research rate is worse than India/Tamils or it might be that I just suck but you'll always lack in techs so just aim for Guilds/Gunpowder before Mughals spawn (it is doable on standard difficulty)
I once survived the Mughals. The key is to keep India alive (Tamils don't matter as you are the buffer zone between Mughals and Tamils)
For example, in one game I controlled all of NW India & Pakistan (Delhi razed). Mughals spawned and founded Delhi, starting at war with India. India had two cities, one core and one city on the tea south of Calcutta. Mughals immediately aimed for Indian capital, collapsing them. With almost all of their units in Indian territory, I used my army to capture Harappa and raze Delhi, at which point they sued for peace. I kept playing the game and the Mughals just dropped dead at one point, with the Indians completely replacing them (literally Mughals collapsed and all their cities turned Indian so it was as if nothing changed).
I also recommend not controlling coastal cities until the British TC event passes. The Tamils should take the weight of the British trading company, besides the only cities I had for most of the game were: Harappa, Chandar-something (core city) and Bhopal. I think my game bugged out afterward, I don't remember.
I once survived the Mughals. The key is to keep India alive (Tamils don't matter as you are the buffer zone between Mughals and Tamils)
For example, in one game I controlled all of NW India & Pakistan (Delhi razed). Mughals spawned and founded Delhi, starting at war with India. India had two cities, one core and one city on the tea south of Calcutta. Mughals immediately aimed for Indian capital, collapsing them. With almost all of their units in Indian territory, I used my army to capture Harappa and raze Delhi, at which point they sued for peace. I kept playing the game and the Mughals just dropped dead at one point, with the Indians completely replacing them (literally Mughals collapsed and all their cities turned Indian so it was as if nothing changed).
I also recommend not controlling coastal cities until the British TC event passes. The Tamils should take the weight of the British trading company, besides the only cities I had for most of the game were: Harappa, Chandar-something (core city) and Bhopal. I think my game bugged out afterward, I don't remember.
WARNING: this update breaks savegame compatibility.
- added a religious persecutor unit
- removed the persecution project
- forced peace from Apostolic Palace is now applied as intended
Please report back on how the persecutor unit works in the game, especially if and how the AI uses it.
- added a religious persecutor unit
- removed the persecution project
- forced peace from Apostolic Palace is now applied as intended
Please report back on how the persecutor unit works in the game, especially if and how the AI uses it.
Oregon Lee
Royal Tenenbaum
- Joined
- Oct 23, 2012
- Messages
- 2,748
I was going to say you're the messiah for finally putting that in, but I just realized the irony since I'm only going to use it to massacre millions of religious people.
DC123456789
Deity
They really want happiness resources but don't care for anything else? 
Although it is quite strange that they value sugar over horses, given how important strategic resources are.
Although it is quite strange that they value sugar over horses, given how important strategic resources are.
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