Current v1.13 Development Discussion

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I have a simple solution to this eternal SoD problem(if it exists): limit the number of times a unit can be upgraded(to 1, I suggest), and make it so that upgrades can only go warrior->swordsman but not warrior->heavy swordsman(i.e. only upgrades to the immediate next level are allowed).

In this way it is meaningless to keep an outdated SoD for centuries, and there will be less 4000 year-old warriors turning into infantries.

p.s. This solution would partly nerf the overpowered German UP too.
 
Another option would be that you have to upgrade units from to class to class and not directly into top class like now is happening. Also to make Prussian UP less OP it could be merely a 75% discount and not complitely free.
 
Higher production costs or tighter upgrade paths merely delays the SoD construction. Once you have it you would still stick with it.
 
Maybe AIs should get an additional counter for gifting units instead of just the fair and forthright trade modifier? Imo gifting away obsolete units for diplo bonuses should be encouraged to simulate arms trade.
 
Maybe AIs should get an additional counter for gifting units instead of just the fair and forthright trade modifier? Imo gifting away obsolete units for diplo bonuses should be encouraged to simulate arms trade.

Problem is that obsolete units really are obsolete, strenght cap is so enormous that traded units are really useless.
 
Problem is that obsolete units really are obsolete, strenght cap is so enormous that traded units are really useless.

Promotions make all the difference. Having seen plenty of riflemen die to legions, it's the AI's mismanagement of promotions that holds it back.

I have a simple solution to this eternal SoD problem(if it exists): limit the number of times a unit can be upgraded(to 1, I suggest), and make it so that upgrades can only go warrior->swordsman but not warrior->heavy swordsman(i.e. only upgrades to the immediate next level are allowed).

In this way it is meaningless to keep an outdated SoD for centuries, and there will be less 4000 year-old warriors turning into infantries.

p.s. This solution would partly nerf the overpowered German UP too.

And yet, I can still have an army of almost 500 melee units in 1792 :king: The unit upkeep is nothing compared to city maintenance.
 
And yet, I can still have an army of almost 500 melee units in 1792 :king: The unit upkeep is nothing compared to city maintenance.

But unit upkeep adds on top of city maintenance, not replace it.
 
But unit upkeep adds on top of city maintenance, not replace it.

Whatever the way is how it is calculated unit upkeep has always been close to nothing. You can have hundres of units but founding a noew city still matters a lot of more.
 
So does anyone else think classical techs are too expensive at the moment (or perhaps it's just a combination of that plus the tech spread modifier)?

I've run several starts as China now on regent/normal, and even though i'm trying to get Taixue's up everywhere with two scientists per city, trying to obtain any classical tech takes an eternity. I try to delay getting mathematics/calendar until i have two taixues/scientists there, but even then those two techs have 15/20 turns in between them for research. You also can't expand too fast with China or you'll run out of money, but you need to tech to currency/code of laws asap for markets/courthouses, but those techs are both 20+ turns each even with boosting your science and Korea will usually spawn with those before you can get them. There's also settings in place to keep you from trading with Europe too early, so India is your only real trading partner to start out. I also don't think Chiba's UP is really helping them with research at all, given the above.

Last note, stability penalties seem extreme for China early game. Just meeting babylon/greece early on with scouts, for some reason i get negative relations with both (will upload a picture later) and even though i only have -1 for bad relations, i'm already unstable and experiencing a moderate diplomatic crisis. I've seen the descending into civil war message several times while playing as China even though i don't collapse or lose any cities.

To sum it up, it feels like early game China has become significantly harder since all the tech adjustments.
 
One needs to be careful about China early game. I suggest bulb Alphabet and research Calendar, trade for other techs and steal from the Koreans.

China's UP IS helpful, without it it'll be even harder, as you can feel after entering Renaissance era.
 
Do you think this is a problem specific to China, or classical techs for all civs?
 
Do you think this is a problem specific to China, or classical techs for all civs?

I would need to do more tests to confirm, most of my games are normally in the 600 AD scenario and those civs. I'll see if i can try India, Egypt, Greece, Rome, and maybe Persia. All i know with China is that it seems a lot harder to develop than it was in past versions of the game, and to me China shouldn't have to struggle too much in tech because of how advanced they were in those times, even if they did have numerous dynasties and political splits. As Fresol mentioned you can steal from Korea, but it seems wrong for Korea to be beating China in tech.
 
I know, I have deliberately made life harder for China. They're difficult to balance because you want them to tech fast early, but not enter a runaway effect where they are by far the most advanced civ later in the game.
 
I know, I have deliberately made life harder for China. They're difficult to balance because you want them to tech fast early, but not enter a runaway effect where they are by far the most advanced civ later in the game.

That sounds right, it's hard to balance a civ that's supposed to exist for the entire game. I'll give them one more try now that i've read Fresol's guide (sans the classical wonder stealing, i want to see if China can be won without all that exploitation or needing to do things like invade Japan). Then i'll try a different 3000BC civ. the ones i mentioned earlier all have some tech related goals in one way or another.
 
That sounds right, it's hard to balance a civ that's supposed to exist for the entire game. I'll give them one more try now that i've read Fresol's guide (sans the classical wonder stealing, i want to see if China can be won without all that exploitation or needing to do things like invade Japan). Then i'll try a different 3000BC civ. the ones i mentioned earlier all have some tech related goals in one way or another.

Fresol was also unbeliable lucky and he had to be reloaded many times. Both Rome and Carthage are able to research compas from the start so if they get one GS they can bulp it and game is lost. It is definetly possible but much more difficult.
 
It's very unlikely Rome or Carthage will get a GS before you discover Compass. Carthage may research Compass on its own, I don't really know . The Greeks are always the biggest contender for Compass, if they survive the Romans and have built the Great Library.

My S/Ls are mostly on goody huts, others are strategical S/Ls. I tried a few different starts as well. Believe me, I wasn't unbelievably lucky, give me a free weekend and I can win another pre-Mongol victory. It is a good strategy.

Simply achieving the UHV(you have until 1800 AD to pull it off) does not require much of a strategy under Regent, it's very relaxed.

With that said, I don't think the Classical era has any particular tech speed problems. Under Regent AI research rate is rather slow but under Paragon it's totally different.
 
A bug I've noticed in world congresses, the AI can ask for settling a city in a jungle tile. If granted the vote, only the pair of defending units will appear in the tile, but no city will be created, probably because jungles cannot be settled at all.
I think congresses are few and far in between enough that an exception for cities granted in them have any jungle in their tile cleared could be implemented.

More about jungles, there's the feature of 1-tile islands being settable regardless of jungle, but not so anything bigger than that, like two tile jungled-up islands such as... Galapagos, Rabaul... ok I don't know many, but since for the purposes of having the city act as a resource improvement, an island is at 5 tiles maximum, shouldn't the same limit apply for settling on top of jungle?

And I suggested this a long time ago so probably it was dropped, but how about having Biology allow settling on top of jungle in every case, so there's no need to clear it with workers first?
 
And I suggested this a long time ago so probably it was dropped, but how about having Biology allow settling on top of jungle in every case, so there's no need to clear it with workers first?

I like this suggestion.

Oh wait, I haven't played a game after Biology for months...
 
Got to play another game as Portugal and noticed a few things:

1. You can now build slave plantations on jungle, which makes sense, but you can also build them on forests. I found that I was able to build super forest plantations on both of Brazil's coffee spawns using slaves.

2. What is the logic behind the extreme variation in commerce yield on plantation resources? I get that because incense spawns on desert it needs some compensation, but, for example, why is tea and tobacco's yield so low? I would think plantation resources could be standardized either as 4c, 1f 2c (i.e. spices), or 2f (i.e. sugar) across the board. Cotton would be the exception but I would suggest either counting the 1p as close enough to 1c that 1p3c is fine, or adding the 1p to a tech like replaceable parts (invention of the cotton gin).

3. Ivory is very weak. Camps are associated with low yields because of an expectation that a forest will remain where one exists but with so much of ivory sitting on a rainforest rather than a forest, improved rainforest ivory modified with a camp changes the yield from unimproved grassland -1f,+2p,+1c. This is comparable to a renaissance era workshop. Early game this is decent but the resource could probably use an extra commerce, after all ivory has historically been highly desired and valuable for craftwork in much the same way gold, silver, and gems were. I would also think the resource belongs in the trading company corporation. I would also suggest for the late game allowing preserve on ivory to add 2 commerce, and to allow preserve to be built on ivory even without rainforest to represent safari tourism.

4. I was getting hit with a -5 stability penalty for out of date civics when I was running republic/capitalism/secularism/representation/mercantilism/naval dominance not long after researching some of those enabling techs. I changed representation to egalitarianism and the penalty vanished. This suggests to me that once you research democracy representation triggers a -5 stability penalty which seems very early for representation to be considered an out of date tech. After all, the enabling tech for representation comes right before the enabling tech for egalitarianism in the tech tree.

5. I agree with you that Naval Dominance should have some economic bonus as naval combat is just less important than land combat in this game and therefore naval domination needs some sort of bonus to balance it out with standing army. However, the custom house building modification seems more appropriate under mercantilism (which also could use a small buff). Instead I would suggest as a possibility +1 production for fishing boats and whaling ships to help coastal cities with little access to production.

6. Holy cow the unhappiness and unhealthiness in the industrial age and beyond is for real. It has made the game a lot more interesting domestically and actually made me consider environmentalism for the first time playing the game. After all free market now also contributes to the happiness/healthiness problem. It's still just not that exciting. Health resolves itself by the time you get access to environmentalism with recycling centers and seven different health generating buildings and it's health that environmentalism primarily interacts with. It's happiness that I would have gone for. I feel like public welfare's university/hospital bonus shouldn't be production but that both buildings should yield one happiness (government sponsored universal healthcare and post-secondary education).

7. Free Market is scary to use now. I'm not sure it needs a buff because it's still tremendously powerful to increase national yield but the happiness problems created are overwhelming. We might benefit from a late game happiness generating building, a counterpart to the supermarket just as a market is the happiness counterpart to the grocer. Civilization 5 uses both a zoo and a stadium which could become available at biology or electricity/industrialism/plastics respectively depending on where exactly you want the building to become available. My choice would be the stadium. While football/soccer is already represented in the game through the Wembley wonder there is a very big difference between local sporting events and a single internationally consumed sporting event. After all, trading for a "hit football event" (which I guess is premier league football games? Hardly wonder worthy from my American perspective, but I digress) can only represent a limited scope of the sporting world broadcast from a single country. A modern stadium represents the gamut running from American football and baseball, Euro league soccer, Indian Cricket, to Aussie rules football. It's just strange that we have sports in the game with Wembley but nothing other than premier league football.

8. Nothing new but when Great Britain gets its Stacks of Redcoats in India it seems to upgrade the vast majority of them with city garrison I and II. Often those stacks fail to take even poorly defended Mughal cities. Perhaps hard coding the promotions will improve an AI Great Britain's chances in India.
 
Got to play another game as Portugal and noticed a few things:

1. You can now build slave plantations on jungle, which makes sense, but you can also build them on forests. I found that I was able to build super forest plantations on both of Brazil's coffee spawns using slaves.
Noted.

2. What is the logic behind the extreme variation in commerce yield on plantation resources? I get that because incense spawns on desert it needs some compensation, but, for example, why is tea and tobacco's yield so low? I would think plantation resources could be standardized either as 4c, 1f 2c (i.e. spices), or 2f (i.e. sugar) across the board. Cotton would be the exception but I would suggest either counting the 1p as close enough to 1c that 1p3c is fine, or adding the 1p to a tech like replaceable parts (invention of the cotton gin).
I don't know, I like the variety. The later additions (tea, tobacco ...) are deliberately low-yield so they would not distort the city configurations that already existed.

4. I was getting hit with a -5 stability penalty for out of date civics when I was running republic/capitalism/secularism/representation/mercantilism/naval dominance not long after researching some of those enabling techs. I changed representation to egalitarianism and the penalty vanished. This suggests to me that once you research democracy representation triggers a -5 stability penalty which seems very early for representation to be considered an out of date tech. After all, the enabling tech for representation comes right before the enabling tech for egalitarianism in the tech tree.
Will look into it.

5. I agree with you that Naval Dominance should have some economic bonus as naval combat is just less important than land combat in this game and therefore naval domination needs some sort of bonus to balance it out with standing army. However, the custom house building modification seems more appropriate under mercantilism (which also could use a small buff). Instead I would suggest as a possibility +1 production for fishing boats and whaling ships to help coastal cities with little access to production.
Good idea, let me see how it works out.

6. Holy cow the unhappiness and unhealthiness in the industrial age and beyond is for real. It has made the game a lot more interesting domestically and actually made me consider environmentalism for the first time playing the game. After all free market now also contributes to the happiness/healthiness problem. It's still just not that exciting. Health resolves itself by the time you get access to environmentalism with recycling centers and seven different health generating buildings and it's health that environmentalism primarily interacts with. It's happiness that I would have gone for. I feel like public welfare's university/hospital bonus shouldn't be production but that both buildings should yield one happiness (government sponsored universal healthcare and post-secondary education).
Great to hear that this works. I agree that there are two many health buildings, maybe Recycling Centers should be changed/removed? They're really unreasonably powerful. I also like the idea about Public Welfare.

7. Free Market is scary to use now. I'm not sure it needs a buff because it's still tremendously powerful to increase national yield but the happiness problems created are overwhelming. We might benefit from a late game happiness generating building, a counterpart to the supermarket just as a market is the happiness counterpart to the grocer. Civilization 5 uses both a zoo and a stadium which could become available at biology or electricity/industrialism/plastics respectively depending on where exactly you want the building to become available. My choice would be the stadium. While football/soccer is already represented in the game through the Wembley wonder there is a very big difference between local sporting events and a single internationally consumed sporting event. After all, trading for a "hit football event" (which I guess is premier league football games? Hardly wonder worthy from my American perspective, but I digress) can only represent a limited scope of the sporting world broadcast from a single country. A modern stadium represents the gamut running from American football and baseball, Euro league soccer, Indian Cricket, to Aussie rules football. It's just strange that we have sports in the game with Wembley but nothing other than premier league football.
*shakes head at the bolded part*

But a late game happiness building would make sense, yes.

8. Nothing new but when Great Britain gets its Stacks of Redcoats in India it seems to upgrade the vast majority of them with city garrison I and II. Often those stacks fail to take even poorly defended Mughal cities. Perhaps hard coding the promotions will improve an AI Great Britain's chances in India.
Yeah.
 
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