Cursive Writing

[Mise]

People have always said CFC's got a lot of smart cookies!

It does, but "able to read" is setting the bar pretty low.

 

[Tee Kay]

For those people complaining about English cursive, spare a thought for people who have to read Chinese handwriting:

 

[Camikaze]

Mise's 'superhuman' abilities are normal for primary school children in the UK.

Obviously 'reading' is here too; this thread seems to show that the UK has a very focus on cursive specifically, though (and apparently Melbourne?). I didn't specifically learn to read cursive, which would seem a requirement to understand the completely different shapes of words involved.

He's also correct that you don't read by looking at individual letters. A good reader can scan a line of text far faster than they can speak it, the words are recognised intuitively on sight, rather than interpreted one letter at a time by the brain

Exactly, which is why words have to be recognisable. Forming a word with the letters that conventionally spell it helps in this regard.

(For the record, I did ask four or five people IRL before I photoed it, zoomed in and posted, and it took a committee consensus to come to a firm enough decision)

It does, but "able to read" is setting the bar pretty low.

Just so I'm clear here (I hope comprehension didn't fail me too); are you actually arguing that cursive could not possibly be illegible, or are you saying that the example given is of quite legible cursive, but far worse exists?

 

[Zelig]

Are curly capitals meant to be quick, or is that entirely stylistic?

There's no need to make any unnecessary curls when writing in cursive.

 

[BvBPL]

I think there’s a significant difference in legibility depending on whether or not one is attempting to write quickly. Attached are a pair of handwriting samples from myself. The first, at the top of the page, are notes I had to quickly jot down during an interview. Towards the bottom is a post-it that I wrote more leisurely. The notes on the page evidence some pretty poor-ass handwriting, but I was attempting to take notes during an interview and I sacrificed legibility for expediency. The note at that the bottom is much more legible, but I wasn’t under any time pressure. Note that both notes were written for my own benefit, not to communicate to others. Had I written with the intent to have others read it, I would have taken more care.

 

[Tee Kay]

Exactly, which is why words have to be recognisable. Forming a word with the letters that conventionally spell it helps in this regard.

Slightly off-topic, but this reminds me why I hate misspellers so much, particularly people who misspell purposely.

You know the excuse: "oh but no one cares anyway it's the age of texting and autocorrect you're just old lol". Yeah, come a bit closer and say that again...

 

[Mise]

Nobody specifically learns how to read handwritten text because it is trivial.

 

[brennan]

Yes but no two people will form a letter in exactly the same way. Humans read the same way text recognition software does, by looking at shapes and patterns rather than for specifics, we're just better at it 'cos we have more practice. Since we mostly encounter joined up writing in the UK we're probably more used to reading it than you guys are.

 

[Tee Kay]

Yeah, I'm guessing much of Camikaze's problem with cursive comes down to lack of exposure.

I haven't come across other people's handwriting in my normal life that often myself; only at the takeaway place where I work and when I'm doing group assignments.

 

[Camikaze]

Slightly off-topic, but this reminds me why I hate misspellers so much, particularly people who misspell purposely.

You know the excuse: "oh but no one cares anyway it's the age of texting and autocorrect you're just old lol". Yeah, come a bit closer and say that again...

Yeah, it's a similar issue. If the shape of the word isn't identifiable, because letters are missing, or changed, or whatever, then you can't speed-read.

Nobody specifically learns how to read handwritten text because it is trivial.

The top example BvBPL is pretty hard for me to read, because it's essentially a foreign text. If I zoom in and tilt my head I can make it out, but I can't just read it straight off a page as I would with any normal writing. I guess it's trivial if you see it a lot (of have grown up seeing it a lot), but the shapes formed for me pretty much resemble an entirely different language (and when the shape isn't there, looking at the individual letters to decipher a meaning completely fails with the example). I think we can agree that 'developed' in the posted example is very much an approximation of a printed 'developed'. If people never come across the version posted in the example, then they're not likely to be able to readily identify it.

Yes but no two people will form a letter in exactly the same way. Humans read the same way text recognition software does, by looking at shapes and patterns rather than for specifics, we're just better at it 'cos we have more practice. Since we mostly encounter joined up writing in the UK we're probably more used to reading it than you guys are.

Which is why 'developed' is still vaguely discernible, though not easily (for me) identifiable; the general 'e' loop is there, but it could be any number of letters when taken on its own. Put together with the rest, it makes something kinda sorta looking like 'developed'.

 

[Mise]

Missed this first time round:

Just so I'm clear here (I hope comprehension didn't fail me too); are you actually arguing that cursive could not possibly be illegible, or are you saying that the example given is of quite legible cursive, but far worse exists?

Handwriting is often illegible. While BvBPL's post-it at the bottom is perfectly legible, his upper note would take far too long for me to decipher (and for far too little gain, I'm sure).

But your prof's handwriting is quite legible. It's not the neatest handwriting in the world, but it's certainly not something anyone should need 5 friends to help them read

 

[Camikaze]

It's like lightbulb jokes, but real.

(BTW, for the sake of filling out the details, it's actually the prof's PhD student; PhD students are just as bad as doctors. I had another as a tutor that literally did the whole 'write the first letter and draw a straight line for the rest of the word with a slight bump for any l's, d's, b's or t's' thing).

 

[BvBPL]

The top example BvBPL is pretty hard for me to read, because it's essentially a foreign text.

To be fair, the top section was notes taken during an interview. If you look at ANY written dictation it will be unrecognizable as stenographers develop their own, personal, shorthand that reads like a code in order to keep up with the speed of the human voice.

I can read it, and that’s the important thing here. I recognize that it is a poor showing, that many letters were dropped, and that it is generally a mess, but that doesn’t devalue the information it conveys to me.

I’m curious how you and taillesskangaru will deal with writing when a boss, coworker, or student gives you a written note. It’s easy to avoid writing, but you can’t realistically hide from reading it during your adult life.

 

[brennan]

I have awful, messy looking handwriting, but most people can read it with effort and if I slow down and write carefully it becomes fairly legible. My missus on the other hand has beautiful handwriting, but hardly anyone can read it because it looks very stylised.

 

[SeekTruthFromFacts]

I wonder if we're seeing two quite different approaches to cursive/joined-up writing here:
- Americans seem to be learning it for cosmetic purposes: hence the "many extra BS flourishes and stuff" (Dachs). It's supposed to be different, so if "most of their lowercase letters aren't very different from print", that's seen as a disadvantage. Because it's an added extra for special occasions, they never get enough exposure to write or read it fluently.
- Commonwealth citizens seem to learn it for speed, and use it all the time, so there are no "unnecessary curls" (Zelig). If they want to be regarded as a mature person, they are expected to be fluent in it, so they are.

Is that fair?

I was rather stunned by this part of the Wiki article: "On the 2006 SAT, a United States college entrance exam, only 15 percent of the students wrote their essay answers in cursive."

I think that in the UK, someone who printed the answers to their university entrance exams would be in serious danger of losing marks, simply because many examiners would have an unconscious prejudice that the candidate was immature.

This. When you look at a newspaper, it isn't printed in cursive. There's a reason for that.

Actually, if you look at a newspaper, you'll see that it uses a serif typeface: one with little extra lines to fill in the spaces between the words. There's a reason for that: it helps people to read more quickly.

Ditto cursive.

 

[Mise]

Yeah, the commonwealth vs USA thing seems to nail it. Camikaze's the exception that proves the rule

And I also read a thing about serif fonts being easier to read than sans serifs, but I'm not sure how true that is. I mean, it feels true, but I don't know if there have been any studies or anything.

 

[BvBPL]

Studies have been done on the ability to read serif v. san-serif fonts. Interestingly, it is easier to read serif on the page and san-serif on the screen, which accounts for the rise of Arial as a font.

 

[IglooDame]

Well I do want to read it, which is why it'd be nice if it were more legible. Your superhuman abilities are quite literally breathtaking, but unfortunately we cannot all be that amazing, a fact which would seem to diminish cursive's utility.

Have you heard the phrase "doctor's writing"?

Interestingly (to me, anyway), doctors' spoken dictation is typically about as bad as their handwriting, at least to my wife (a medical transcriptionist with decades of experience) and many of her colleagues. My theory, given that they are presumably smart enough to communicate clearly if they have a mind to, is that their training in no way emphasizes clarity of communication with those that must 'translate' it. Any MDs or people familiar with training/schooling for medical doctors that could contradict or support this please do so.

 

[NickyJ]

Slightly off-topic, but this reminds me why I hate misspellers so much, particularly people who misspell purposely.

You know the excuse: "oh but no one cares anyway it's the age of texting and autocorrect you're just old lol". Yeah, come a bit closer and say that again...

Bah, you don't even have to come closer.

Actually, if you look at a newspaper, you'll see that it uses a serif typeface: one with little extra lines to fill in the spaces between the words. There's a reason for that: it helps people to read more quickly.

Ditto cursive.

Okay then, look at the site. Why is all the writing not in cursive?

 

[SeekTruthFromFacts]

Reading screens and reading printed text is different.

IIRC, Verdana was specifically designed as the Windows XP screen font after tests to see what worked best.