DADT Repealed! 65-31

[Gustave5436]

Color just is how you look. Sexuality is how you feel. This is why racial segregation is a completely stupid idea, but sex and sexuality-based segregation, not so much.

Sexual orientation is different from sexual attraction. It is a distinct trait of your biology whether you are attracted to males or not, and likewise for females. However, whether you define yourself as "gay," "straight," or anything else is a socially constructed role, much like ethnicity is a social construct which relates to the biological phenomenon of skin pigmentation.

Sexual attraction is indeed like skin pigmentation in that it is biologically determined, and they are alike in the sense that a free society would ignore both traits as socially irrelevant. It is because society determines that people with a particular skin pigmentation are part of some "race," and that people who have a particular pattern of sexual attractions are part of some "orientation," that people make such a big deal about them. In other words, they are both social constructs and a society cannot be truly free unless it abolishes them entirely; segregation based on social constructs, whether they be race, gender, sexual orientation, or age, is unfree and unjust.

 

[Ziggy Stardust]

Then, tell me Zig: why did all your ideas FAIL TO WORK for the Repubs in 2008???

What on Earth are you talking about.

I'd read my post again if I were you because you clearly missed the point.

And oddly enough, the subject.

 

[Tani Coyote]

So you think there should be gay-only and straight-only units?

It reduces the risk of harassment by homophobes and reduces the risk of sexual harassment by some disrespectful homosexuals. The day respect is going both ways, we can consider full integration.

I say we win gay marriage rights first before considering full integration, since that would at least be proof that society at large is willing to accord gays the same rights and respect as any other group.

Of course, I support opt-ins and opt-outs of the segregation - if a straight soldier has no problem serving with gay soldiers, then by all means, he should have the right to request to serve in their units.

How is desegregating based on race a good idea while not desegregating based on sexual preference a bad one?

I never said it was a bad idea. Just that segregation by orientation to me seems fine.

Don't racists feel just as "uncomfortable" around blacks, as straight bigots do around gays or vice versa?

Racism is very different from discrimination based on sexual orientation. The former is based on appearance, whereas the latter is based on behavior. Discrimination based on behavior, from what I know, is a very big part of the military. Not everyone's cut out for it.

Now you could just eliminate all homophobes and all homosexuals who'd harass heterosexuals, but this would probably be more difficult than it sounds. Never mind, it opens the door for Salem 2.0.

Are you advocating gay-only and straight-only bathrooms as well?

Hardly. You're in the bathroom for a short time generally. Unlike barracks, where you will eat, sleep, and spend most of your day with your comrades. Lifestyle becomes very important here.

You should try meeting some women who aren't quite so reactionary.

Reactionary? Women feeling uncomfortable around men while doing their business, I think, is hardly reactionary. I don't see most of these women defending the great constructs of the status quo - they just dislike the idea of sharing a bathroom with men.

Never mind there'd be a spike in the murder rate if we had unisex bathrooms. So many men leave the toilet seat up and... well...

Some statistics would be nice

I don't have the stats, but it was traditionally used in many cultures. The Greeks and the Japanese, I believe, were quite fond of the idea.

So you're are fine with what has been attacked as homophobia?

How in God's name is being attacked for hitting on someone when they don't want it homophobia? Does a women hate men when she throws her drink in your face when you hit on her in a rude manner? No, not at all.

Sexual harassment is harassment, regardless of orientation.

Try one for harassment, try the other for assault. But there is no bloody homophobia in the scenario I describe.

Sexual attraction is indeed like skin pigmentation in that it is biologically determined, and they are alike in the sense that a free society would ignore both traits as socially irrelevant.

Except generally, skin color doesn't determine what skin colors you will be attracted to. Sexual orientation does. It is a very different quality, as it involves romance. Skin color is just how you look.

 

[GamezRule]

I really could only understand segregated bunk-rooms. Anything else is ridiculous. I mean it's not like there are many gay guys who are going to shout "I'm Gay" in the middle of barracks. Also, I went on a field trip where my class stayed at a camp, so we had bunks and there was a gay guy with us, and nobody had a problem with it. Really, I feel that the values of the military concerning respect among comrades should make it so nobody has a problem with it. If you do, maybe you should consider something different, Al Qaeda.

 

[choxorn]

But Al Qaeda wishes death to all homosexuals.

 

[Karalysia]

Al Qaida's homosexual behavior is making our troops uncomfortable.

 

[civ_king]

*snip*
I don't have the stats, but it was traditionally used in many cultures. The Greeks and the Japanese, I believe, were quite fond of the idea.



How in God's name is being attacked for hitting on someone when they don't want it homophobia? Does a women hate men when she throws her drink in your face when you hit on her in a rude manner? No, not at all.

Sexual harassment is harassment, regardless of orientation.

Try one for harassment, try the other for assault. But there is no bloody homophobia in the scenario I describe.



Except generally, skin color doesn't determine what skin colors you will be attracted to. Sexual orientation does. It is a very different quality, as it involves romance. Skin color is just how you look.

eh? Didn't hear that before, [citation needed]

You didn't add qualifiers, if a guy said "Hi there beautiful, wanna grab a drink?" to a woman does that merit the woman inflicting harm?

Sexual harassment: You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means.
Assault:You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means.

Al Qaida's homosexual behavior is making our troops uncomfortable.

Man-love Thursdays *snigger*

 

[Tani Coyote]

eh? Didn't hear that before, [citation needed]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homosexuality_in_the_militaries_of_ancient_Greece

http://www.samurai-weapons.net/samurai-history/wakashudo-as-a-form-of-homosexuality-in-old-japan

You didn't add qualifiers, if a guy said "Hi there beautiful, wanna grab a drink?" to a woman does that merit the woman inflicting harm?

No, but throwing her drink in his face is probably merited.

Sexual harassment: You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means.

Continuing to hit on someone when they don't want it counts as harassment in the least.

Wiki - "Harassment covers a wide range of offensive behaviour. It is commonly understood as behaviour intended to disturb or upset." Someone who keeps making lewd comments about you, trying to hit on you, etc. probably ends up disturbing you.

Assault:You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means.

I'm pretty sure beating someone's ass counts as assault.

So yeah. These two comments were pretty low.

 

[Formaldehyde]

It reduces the risk of harassment by homophobes and reduces the risk of sexual harassment by some disrespectful homosexuals.

The same could obviously be said about racial segregation for exactly the same reasons. I would contend the military doesn't need bigots, whether they are heterosexual or homosexual, any more than they need racists.

The day respect is going both ways, we can consider full integration.

No, the day discrimination doesn't occur either way we can consider it to be "full integration".

You realize, of course, that no mlitary that openly allows gays tries to segregate them in any manner, shape or form? That gays in the military don't want segregated units just as most of the straights don't? That this is an ultraconservative opinion, especially from someone who is gay?

The past is not dead. It is not even the past. William Faulkner

Reactionary? Women feeling uncomfortable around men while doing their business, I think, is hardly reactionary. I don't see most of these women defending the great constructs of the status quo - they just dislike the idea of sharing a bathroom with men.

Perhaps provincial would be a better word. Many women don't have any problem with it. Many bathrooms in Manhattan bars and elsewhere are unisexual. Of course, if the bathrooms are hardly ever cleaned very few woman are going to stand for that, while males may continue to frequent that sort of establishment. If you really don't know any women who would not be offended by this, I think you need to start cultivating a few more acquaintances who are living in the 21st century instead of in the past.

If you were at a gas station with single occupant bathrooms and the male bathroom was busy, would you use the female one? I even occasionally pick the female one when both are free if the male one is disgusting while female one is cleaner.

No, but throwing her drink in his face is probably merited.

By merely asking a woman if she wants to go out for drinks at a bar?

Continuing to hit on someone when they don't want it counts as harassment in the least.

No, that is being persistent. In case you didn't realize it, many women initially say no to advances but do eventually relent if the male is polite and not overly aggressive about it. The trick is to not be obnoxious about it, and if the female makes it perfectly clear she would never be interested to then leave her alone. You don't seem to know much about normal heterosexual behavior.

 

[GhostWriter16]

You didn't add qualifiers, if a guy said "Hi there beautiful, wanna grab a drink?" to a woman does that merit the woman inflicting harm?

No, but if a gay guy flirts with a man he knows is straight, he deserves what's he's going to get.

 

[holy king]

a dirty laugh?

 

[JollyRoger]

No, but if a gay guy flirts with a man he knows is straight, he deserves what's he's going to get.

How do you know someone is straight? Plenty of Ted Haggard/Larry Craig types out there.

 

[Behind The Mask]

No, but if a gay guy flirts with a man he knows is straight, he deserves what's he's going to get.

A polite dismissal and an affirmation that he is in fact not gay?

No reason we can't be civil...

 

[civ_king]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homosexuality_in_the_militaries_of_ancient_Greece

http://www.samurai-weapons.net/samurai-history/wakashudo-as-a-form-of-homosexuality-in-old-japan



No, but throwing her drink in his face is probably merited.



Continuing to hit on someone when they don't want it counts as harassment in the least.

Wiki - "Harassment covers a wide range of offensive behaviour. It is commonly understood as behaviour intended to disturb or upset." Someone who keeps making lewd comments about you, trying to hit on you, etc. probably ends up disturbing you.



I'm pretty sure beating someone's ass counts as assault.

So yeah. These two comments were pretty low.

One city state, maybe two wow so impressive definitely "were quite fond of the idea."
So it says ancient times and it dates to the 17th century OMG "were quite fond of the idea."

So over half of guys deserve having stuff throw at them? Normal heterosexual behavior is bad? WTH???

Legally it isn't sexual harassment in the US.

No, it is assault and battery.

So yeah it those comments were entirely justified

The same could obviously be said about racial segregation for exactly the same reasons. I would contend the military doesn't need bigots, whether they are heterosexual or homosexual, any more than they need racists.

No, the day discrimination doesn't occur either way we can consider it to be "full integration".

You realize, of course, that no mlitary that openly allows gays tries to segregate them in any manner, shape or form? That gays in the military don't want segregated units just as most of the straights don't? That this is an ultraconservative opinion, especially from someone who is gay?

The past is not dead. It is not even the past. William Faulkner

Perhaps provincial would be a better word. Many women don't have any problem with it. Many bathrooms in Manhattan bars and elsewhere are unisexual. Of course, if the bathrooms are hardly ever cleaned very few woman are going to stand for that, while males may continue to frequent that sort of establishment. If you really don't know any women who would not be offended by this, I think you need to start cultivating a few more acquaintances who are living in the 21st century instead of in the past.

If you were at a gas station with single occupant bathrooms and the male bathroom was busy, would you use the female one? I even occasionally pick the female one when both are free if the male one is disgusting while female one is cleaner.

By merely asking a woman if she wants to go out for drinks at a bar?

No, that is being persistent. In case you didn't realize it, many women initially say no to advances but do eventually relent if the male is polite and not overly aggressive about it. The trick is to not be obnoxious about it, and if the female makes it perfectly clear she would never be interested to then leave her alone. You don't seem to know much about normal heterosexual behavior.

Taniciusfox appears to be talking about multistall unisex bathrooms

 

[ParkCungHee]

So you think there should be gay-only and straight-only units?

I for one support this. It could draw from the best examples of segregation in history. It could be like the Black Watch, Royal Ecossais or Gallowglasses.
All would fear our elite homosexual regiments.

 

[Formaldehyde]

Taniciusfox appears to be talking about multistall unisex bathrooms

There are many Manhattan bars and nightclubs that allow males to go into the ladies bathroom and vice versa. One prominent nightclub featured a men's bathroom that had vodka and beer taps after hours. But you still found females in there long before the management turned them on, because there was always a much longer line to use the female bathroom. At another nightclub, most males used the ladies bathroom because it was much more convenient. I even once had oral sex in the ladies room of an S&M club. Nobody seemed to mind.

While American bathrooms are typically pretty horrible when it comes to privacy due to the stalls which are so prevalent, they don't have to be that way. I would see no problems at all having a common area for both sexes to use if the toilets were in little enclosed rooms, which are common in London and elsewhere in Europe, especially if it had a bathroom attendant.

 

[MobBoss]

No, that is being persistent.

One persons persistence is another persons harassment. Your're wrong. Continued unwanted advances is indeed harassment.

In case you didn't realize it, many women initially say no to advances but do eventually relent if the male is polite and not overly aggressive about it. The trick is to not be obnoxious about it, and if the female makes it perfectly clear she would never be interested to then leave her alone. You don't seem to know much about normal heterosexual behavior.

Are you married Form? Because I dont think unwanted persistent advances just to get the woman to 'relent' normal heterosexual behavior either.

Just sayin.

 

[JollyRoger]

I suppose a ring could overcome lack of charm in solving resistance.

 

[ecuwins]

Garmser District, Helmand Province, Afghanistan

Time: 0100

Temp: 28F

Lt. Williams, Platoon Leader: "Men, I have an update from Camp Leatherneck on the guys that got hit in last night's ambush. LCpl. Lopez didn't make it. He was a good Marine and we'll miss him greatly. Pvt. Puckett will be OK but will probably lose his legs and LCpl. Mendes suffered a pretty bad concussion. Continue to pray for these brave Marines and their families."

"I know you guys haven't been getting enough sleep lately and we've run out of MREs and fresh water. Nap when you can, scrounge for food and boil water. We hope to get a supply drop in the next few days. Those of you with dysentery and intestinal parasites, do the best you can. I've requested meds to be included with the drop. Our winter sleeping bags should arrive soon, as well. Until then, share blankets, poncho liners and body heat. Stay warm the best way you can."

"1st squad, you'll take the first patrol tonight at 0400. As you know, we've uncovered a lot of IEDs where you'll be going but we can't get them all. LCpl. Melton, you'll take first point. Be careful out there. The rest of you guys get busy filling sandbags and fortifying our position. No sleep for anyone until that's completed."

"There's no way to pussyfoot around this, so I'll address it right now. You men have no doubt heard that Pvt. Jackson and LCpl. Kowalski surprised Sgt. Walters being blown by Cpl. Browne. Just erase that from your minds right now. We don't want any distractions and if I hear anyone talking about it, there will be consequences. There is no room for bigotry and homophobia in this man's Corps. Hooorah!"

 

[civ_king]

There are many Manhattan bars and nightclubs that allow males to go into the ladies bathroom and vice versa. One prominent nightclub featured a men's bathroom that had vodka and beer taps after hours. But you still found females in there long before the management turned them on. Another nightclub most males used the ladies bathroom because it was much more convenient. I even had oral sex once in the ladies room of an S&M club.

While American stalls are typically pretty horrible when it comes to privacy, they don't have to be that way. I would see no problems at all having a common area for both sexes to use, especially if it had a bathroom attendant, if the stalls were actually little enclosed rooms which are common in London.

Too much information