DaNES II: When the Stars Fall

[Birdjaguar]

Orders sent.

 

[LightFang]

Okay, all the jerks from #nes have pushed me to step back into the ring and start NESing again so I guess I will.

I have to submit a CV though? Shoot, I haven't done much. Well, I'll apply anything. The worst that'll happen is that I get rejected, which is fine too.

So without further ado, here's my official application for Kaspeireia!

Success/Failures
It's been too long! I hardly remember what I did.
-LINESII: I was Aryie, I managed to lose a war and end up with more land. I wrote a few dumb stories and had a good time being inconsequential.
-FarowNES(N): I had a good time with my imperialistic Du'alist religion, which clearly was not based on any real life religion. I managed to be a little bully up north where nobody could bother me, and I avoided having any sort of real confrontation with any player.
-BirdNES(N): I was on a roll and I betrayed Darkening with some other guy but then Birdy had to be a jerk and close the NES. My greatest accomplishment was actually getting into an important war with another player.
-Daftpanzer's Not a Real NES Experimental Thing: I led China from the nomadic days all the way to the modern age! I was almost destroyed but came back and I totally count myself as a winner.

Strengths
-Short, concise orders! Yes, I don't have much to say about anything, mostly stemming from my lack of knowledge, so don't ever worry about long, rambling orders from me!
-Mastery of the English language! I like to think that I hardly make any grammatical mistakes! I hope this is true. In any case, there's that. Hardly means anything on here, yes, but on a CV, you have to play to your (few) strengths!

P.S. Yes I know I'm turning this in right after orders were due. It's okay, I'll see how Kaspeireia does. I know you won't die on me in 5 years! Right?

 

[spryllino]

Hooray! A neighbour. You didn't have to do the CV except on the pre-thread (so that Dachs could allocate the places in the NES on a basis other than first-come-first-served). I should point out that you came into the war with Baktria on my account and so I gave you 300 talents to help with the peace.

 

[Adrogans]

In the Front
__________________________

The weather was poor as it had been all week. The scout watching the Iberian army was ready for all this to be over. But unfortunately the Iberians refused to simply walk away.

Erwin was damn sure they could remove the Iberians eventually, but it would be a high price to pay. Even still he loathed giving the invaders anything to make them leave. The Iberians had killed his lord and all but one daughter of his lord’s family. The Sidona Bastarna had been crushed and that still drove Erwin on in service to the
Trohtîn when he otherwise would have been ready to simply pay the bribe to be rid of the Iberians.

He watched them meandering around their camp and wondered why they still bothered? There was no way this war was worth it for them. What did they really expect to happen at this point? So many had been killed on both sides and he was damn sure that as tired of the war as most Walhians were, the Iberians had to be even sicker of it.

What could one expect? They were Iberians, and everyone knew the Iberians had sex with goats and sheep. They were stupid people and apparently there was no end to their stupidity. Did they really think the Trohtîn would just curl up in a ball and let them take his vassals away?

Whatever it was time to head back and report on the activity, or rather the lack of activity from this force of Iberians. Erwin quietly readied his gear and headed out past the very tired and inept picket lines of the Iberians.

Trohtîn’s Camp
__________________________

Erwin sat in the large tent awaiting his new liege, Lord Ewald the Trohtîn’s heir. After a short while in which Erwin had partaken of the offered wineskin and some cheese Ewald strode into the tent.

“Anything important to report Erwin?” Ewald asked casually.

“No Milord. They are still encamped in the same position as they have been for many weeks. They appear to simply want to return home, but cannot until their Lord agrees to peace and withdraws.” Erwin paused and then decided to add for completeness sake, “They have started to become lazy, I was able to scout from inside their picket line most of the time.”

Ewald nodded and then sat down for a moment while he contemplated what if anything he was going to tell Erwin. For all their relationship was much more relaxed than other servants and masters, Erwin was still just a servant of Ewald’s and he knew he didn’t need to know everything. But then to Erwin’s surprise Ewald spoke once more and not to dismiss him.

“Well they probably all know that the leader of the Iberians has tried to get a bribe, to call it what it is, for him to leave. And the Trohtîn continues to stick to his position that we will not pay a bribe and they should simply leave if they want peace.” Ewald paused for a moment and took a draught from his own wineskin, then continued. “Simply put he refuses to acknowledge that we could ultimately remove his force from Walhia or at the very least keep them busy until there were signifigant upheavals back in Iberia. Remember we didn’t start this and we are defending our homes. They are not, well not from us at any rate.”

Erwin wondered why Lord Ewald felt the need to explain this, everyone knew it. Then he realized from the look on Ewald’s face that perhaps he simply needed to say it out loud to organize his own thoughts. So Erwin gave simple acknowledgements and decided to serve the purpose of helping his liege come to the decision he needed to.

“And something not known outside the inner circle is that the Trohtîn is not well. He has taken ill and refuses to show it by moving off the field of battle since he feels it would show weakness to the soldiers. And deep down as much as I want him to be well, I know he is right.” Erwin saw the controlled worry in the back of Lord Ewald’s eyes as he spoke. The natural fear one has for what sounded like the death of one’s parent. Well most have, Erwin himself had hated his father, but anyone who had an ounce of sense had hated him too.

“I do not know if I am ready, but the gods appear to have decided it will be father’s time to join them soon. I just hope they don’t drag it out like some I have seen.” Erwin nodded and he understood this too, better one go in his sleep than suffer some of the illnesses he had seen ravage others.

Suddenly Lord Ewald’s eyes were clear once more and the determination shone through. “Erwin I want you to gather some men who you know to be loyal and steadfast to replenish the ranks of the Trohtîn’s Guard. I fear we may need them soon.”

With that Ewald strode from the room obviously having made whatever decision he had needed to.

Trohtîn’s Tent
__________________________

Ewald entered the large tent setup for planning the campaign and as usual saw all the war leaders, his brothers, and the Trohtîn in discussion of some new plan. And from the sounds of the advisor’s opposition it was probably not a plan he was going to like either. Though to be honest to himself he was not surprised when he did finally hear the idea.

The Trohtîn Wiolant explained his plan to his heir and the heir dutifully listened to the whole of it. By the end Ewald knew he opposed the idea itself, but completely understood the personal reasons for the idea. Also once the Trohtîn had finished the advisors and his sons, except for the heir who was still contemplating the idea and his response, immediately began to try and dissuade the Trohtîn once more.

“No.” Spoke Ewald in a stern voice which halted all the advisors’ discussions with a look of hope for another ally in their cause to dissuade the Trohtîn. The hope was quickly dashed. “Father,” continued Ewald who deliberately was making this a familial issue instead of as leader of Whalia, “I understand the aspects of your proposal; I think I can grasp most of the good and the bad in it as well.” Ewald pause for a moment obviously contemplating the best way to continue. “I feel that politically this is not a very good decision, nor am I sure it is a very good decision for the war either; but I do understand the personal reason behind it and that I can respect and support.”

“I am glad you understand, this is why I am also glad you are the heir.” Trohtîn Wiolant nodded slightly to his eldest son. Now addressing the rest of the crowd in the tent, “I am the Trohtîn, and I have decided what the best course is. Normally I would let you dissuade me if you all opposed an action, but this time I am firm.”

The crowd as one bent their heads. They all knew that they respected their Trohtîn and understood that when he was firm they would do their best to carry it out. No matter the consequences.

 

[LightFang]

Hooray! A neighbour. You didn't have to do the CV except on the pre-thread (so that Dachs could allocate the places in the NES on a basis other than first-come-first-served). I should point out that you came into the war with Baktria on my account and so I gave you 300 talents to help with the peace.

I just wanted to talk about myself. Can you blame a person for being vain? (Hint: I wouldn't!)

 

[Crow_T_Robot]

Willing to take a newcomer?
This looks like it is pretty cool and I would like to make my debut here if possible.
Sure. Any recommendations for openings?

 

[Thlayli]

Welcome. Pick an open NPC, and indicate your interest to Dachs.

 

[Tree151]

Dachs, I'm sorry, but I'm quitting this game for now. So, the Aksumite Empire is open. I might rejoin later as a different nation, if this NES continues long enough.

 

[BlastMasterson]

I've been reading for a while and would like to know if someone has some inside info as to why it has ceased. Thanks.

 

[Thlayli]

We all don't exactly know. Dachs sort of just up and abandoned us. He doesn't even come on #nes anymore.

 

[Adrogans]

I miss Dachs.

 

[Dachs]

Me too, Adrogans, me too.

Sorry, guys, but as you’ve probably guessed, the NES is dead.

I could give you a whole song-and-dance routine about my three-year-old laptop’s HDD giving up the ghost several weeks ago, and my attempt to get a replacement – all of which is true. The hardware problems didn’t help out, but the main failures were my abysmal time management and my signal failure to back-up my NES stuff. I no longer possess any of the order sets sent to me, nor the semi-finished update that I had been working on. So yeah, blame me for the NES dying way faster than it ought to have.

Maybe it’s premature to take some lessons from this, since it only lasted four updates, but I think I should try, because I owe something to you people, and I at least want this to be useful in some way.

Spoiler Analysis :

Time Management

The main thing I took away from this NES in terms of managing your time is that even the slightest screwups can destroy your train of thought and derail an update. I tried to keep myself off the forums while updating in an effort to get things done within the space of a day. I think that’s a good start, but by the later updates it clearly wasn’t enough.

At the same time, I believe, more strongly than I had before, that NES complexity does not prevent rapid updating. This NES featured more human involvement on the part of the mod than I think most do – in terms of answering questions, dealing with exogenous shocks, researching the setting, and so forth. It was a pretty heavy mod burden. But even with all of this stuff to deal with, one-day updates were always possible. When they didn’t happen, it was my fault for dicking around too much – going out to play basketball, watching TV, shooting the breeze with my friends or partying, or even getting lost in TV Tropes for hours at a time. Any of these updates could have been finished within a day without those distractions. Mod discipline in avoiding them is paramount, and it’s something I didn’t do very well at, especially as the NES wore on.

Player Involvement

I’m deeply uncertain about the link between rapid updating and player involvement now. Before the NES started, I was pretty sure that if I managed to update on a regular schedule, people would be attracted to playing in the NES and there wouldn’t be very much turnover. Even when I did update quickly, though, player turnover – in terms of people who outright left and in terms of people who switched up constantly – was way higher than I thought it should be. It detracted from immersion and weakened the impulse to stay in character. Even when I attempted to solidify player commitment to a given country by adding in the application system in the pre-NES, results were…mixed at best.

The Setting

At the same time, I have to acknowledge that my own handling of player immersion was pretty poor. A huge part of this was the setting of the NES itself. Originally I had thought that creating a Guess-the-PoD map, with the attendant vagueness about many of the intervening events, would make the alternate history setting more palatable and more easily set up. This way, too, players would be able to determine elements of their own history. I had seen this work in, for instance, AFSNES and ITNES, where overarching timeline control and world-historical events in the BT were handled by das as the mod, while individual players, for story purposes, were allowed limited control of their own history for story and immersion purposes. I also felt that this path would permit me to incorporate regions of the world where I felt myself to be historically deficient.

This flopped pretty badly. I had expected players to fill in the blanks on such things as the internal structure of world religions, but with the exception of the Sophists (kudos to Bill and Thlayli especially for that), nobody could really be assed to do anything. Buddhism, in particular, was deeply flawed (part of that was my problem as well, since I myself couldn’t fill in the blanks that the players decided to ignore).

I also ended up suffering from doubts about the althistorical validity of the setting itself. Prescient players, at different intervals, stated that the whole thing seemed like a transplant of the Hellenistic world forward by eight centuries, and to a large degree, they were right. I didn’t manage to make the Western world without Rome and Christianity that believable, and immersion suffered because of that. Other little things, like using talents as the currency for everyone (China and India players were deeply confused about how things compared to historical currency usage there, not to mention places where currency-based exchange was even less of a component of the economy than it was everywhere else, like the Central Asian steppe states and Northern Europe) and my frequently lazy and out-of-character replies to diplomacy, also hurt immersion. Also, India was just a mess. Everybody – players and mod – dropped the ball there, in so many different ways.

DaNES on Rails

The way I tried to strike a balance between player involvement and mod involvement within the NES itself…well, I’m not entirely happy with it. It’s impossible to keep moderator bias out of, for instance, combat resolution, especially when I did it the way I did. I am emphatically not going to run another NES without at least a rudimentary combat simulator. No friggin’ way. It’s not that it reduces work – it doesn’t – but it reduces uncertainty and implausibility. Or at least, it should.

Exogenous shocks to players were also…eh. I tried to be pretty up-front about the definite personal bent some of them involved – i.e. “if you do something stupid you will probably get punished for it” – but sometimes I feel as though I was harder on some players than I ought to have been and insufficiently hard on others. Yeesh. Gotta work on that.

Structure and Rules

Five-year turns, with the kind of military stuff I ended up writing, were a poor choice. Players ended up front-loading the first few years with actions and not really projecting the various possible outcomes into the last few years. Sometimes this crippled people, sometimes it didn’t. Thlayli in particular, though, had a hard time trying to juggle yearly-elected magistrates, who certainly wouldn’t have the same policies, with attempting to create continuity in planning over five-year turns.

The economic rules were…eh. I admit, I had read too much Schumpeter before I made the rules for this NES, and so drastically overstated the role of plunder and warmaking in states’ economies, especially in the Greek states. I don’t think I made it sufficiently clear how much military recruitment and so forth affected income, and in some places I failed to accurately (or even plausibly) account for war-exhaustion, whether overestimates or underestimates. And costs were…sometimes weird. The dangers of somebody with insufficient grasp of economic history attempting to play with economic history, I suppose.

Military rules were also meh. Five-year turns were damaging here, as was my inability to extrapolate the Hellenistic mode of war forward eight centuries. (Even if there were strong similarities between Hellenistic combined-arms armies and, say, OTL Byzantine ones. Whatever.) Most of the military rules weren’t all that inventive anyway. I probably spent too much time talking about military events compared to nonmilitary events, although to be fair, most peoples’ orders were chiefly concerned with the latter anyway. I also feel as though I didn’t accurately mess with military intelligence, but that’s mostly due to the open stats – everybody automatically knowing the size of everybody else’s military is a tough obstacle to overcome.

I’m semi-happy with how the factions turned out, but since I basically took that idea from Birdjag, there’s not really much to say there.

Again, I apologize for the premature death of this NES. I’m not going to try to start anything else until I fix the gaping holes in the DaNES II system, even if the holes wouldn’t have totally prevented the NES from running to some kind of conclusion. Maybe an althist or two.

 

[Kentharu]

This sucks , even if I did horrible in this NES, I still liked it.

Oh well at least you have returned.

 

[Ninja Dude]

Well dang I had a ton of fun with this NES, and I didn't even technically play a turn. Writing orders and planning was fun, along with the diplomacy. It's a shame to see this go, but if it has to, it has to.

 

[spryllino]

Indeed, it does suck. Your updating still beats some.

I found that the gaps in plausibility in the NES were fairly harmless, at least from my perspective. I didn't find any real problem there at all actually. There was no real need for a history of Zoroastrianism, really, in my opinion, just as long as it was clear that it was a different religion in opposition to Sophism, which was its real political role.

Moreover, I think Sophism worked excellently. It made what could have been one of the few implausible messes in the NES into an excellent piece of interest; it made the world different and unique and greatly enhanced the NES, I thought.

I think that it was quite right that the victory of Antiochus at Magnesia would indeed have produced a very Hellenistic world in 600 AD. I think that was quite right, and as a fan of the Hellenistic world myself, I loved that. I thought that you modded the Hellenistic world just as the Hellenistic world should have been modded.

 

[Perfectionist]

Oh, that's a shame. It might have had drawbacks, but it was still the best alt-hist for ages and I enjoyed it immensely. I hope you don't wait too long before starting something new.

It's good that you're back, by the way.

 

[Thlayli]

Well, I appreciate the time you put into updating, Dachs. It was a great NES.

 

[Birdjaguar]

Your write up was fabulous and thoughtful; I know just how you feel Dachs....

Since you don't think the five year turns worked out, what length do you think would work better?

 

[Dachs]

Thanks for the votes of confidence, guys.

Since you don't think the five year turns worked out, what length do you think would work better?

I'm not sure at all. It's hard to strike a good balance between "moving the action along" and giving the players enough control for it to work, especially during this time period. At the same time, I'm worried that by offering too much and too detailed player control, people will embark on major initiatives out of impatience or a desire to maximize turns' effectiveness, and I don't want to railroad people into trying to fill the NES with interesting stuff. I guess we just have to keep experimenting, see what happens.

 

[Birdjaguar]

If you were to try an alternate length, would it be 3 years or 8 years. Longer would mean that most projects are completed in one or two turns; Shorter turns would spread the projects out and possibly create record keeping issues for the mod.