D'Artagnan01: Low-level Training Day

[Bede]

Until our cities grow some and reduce our unit support cost, we are better of in Despotism.

Be careful here. You need to take the calculations a step further. There will be a recession but its effects will be less than you think and not long lasting.

If you look carefully you will notice that income goes up almost as fast as expenses, but what CAII does not show you is the effect on population growth, nor does it show you that because income goes up the effectiveness of the slider settings also changes in a positive way.

In Despotism every 10% increment on the slider is worth 10 units of either happiness or beakers. In Republic every increment of the slider will be worth 17, a 70% increase in effectiveness. And every new citizen, if working an improved field will deliver up to 100% additional commerce. And under Republic you get a boost in population growth rates if you can work irrigated grasslands or food bonuses.

And you can take steps to mitigate the unit support issue as you won't need any garrisons in the unexposed core cities. So disbanding is an option and you can get a boost in your building efforts.

 

[CommandoBob]

Some Plans, in a Rambling Sort of Way

Grab the Ivory
Turn One:
Galley01 near Chartres docks in Chartres. The spear and settler in Rheims walk to and arrive in Chartres.
Settler in Paris heads to Dijon (10 road tiles crossing one river, arrives on Turn Four).
Settler W, N and NW, ending 1S of Orleans.
Orleans settler -> vSpear, 2 turns, and rush.

Turn Two:
Settler and Spear load into Galley01.
Galley01 N, N and N, now 1W of Dijon.
SettlerParis W, NW and N, crossing river with last movement, ending 1S of Tours.
vSpearOrleans NW, NW and NW, ending in Tours.

Turn Three:
Galley01 N, N and NW, 1E of whale.
SettlerParis N, N, NW, ending 1SE of Dijon.
vSpearOrleans N, NW and NW, ending in Dijon.
Dijon, settler -> galley and rush.

Turn Four:
Galley01 NW, NW and NW, 2SW of grapes.
SettlerParis NW, loads into Galley02.
vSpearOrleans loads into Galley02.

Turns Five and More:
Galley01 and Galley02 head up the coast, passing Caughnawaga, and unloading on the Red Dot, as shown below:

Ivory Area 130 BC

Galley01's units head for the Ivory or the hill next to the Ivory (Blue Circle or Green Circle).
Galley01 continues to explore the coast of England.
Galley02's units settle the Red Dot and rush a harbor, followed by a library to ease the cultural pressure.

Somehow we get a worker up here to connect the two cities and we have our third luxury.

If the English and Iroquois stand still long enough. England has two spare ivory right now, so a third spare ivory may not appeal to them.

Grab the Grapes
Similar to Grab the Ivory, but we only move Galley01 to the coastal grassland west of Cherbourg and build a city there.
SettlerParis and escort do not stop in Dijon, but continue northwards to the hill NE of Cherbourg and build a city on that hill (such a nice view of the marshes), sealing the south for France.

Go West
Send a warrior to explore the island west of Rouen, luxury hunting.

Be Studious
We have three libraries (Orleans, Tours and Marseilles) and are building two more. Build a library in any city with a net of 2spt or greater?

 

[Ansar]

Well, CB's Economy pics show it all. its the unit support that would be killing us because everything else is increased by a lot, except corruption, which dropped.

thanks for clearing that up, CB!

 

[SimpleMonkey]

lurker's comment: The monk speaks words of wisdom. The vastly increased productivity and especially growth of Republic allow a quick recovery from the switch out of despotism. The longer you wait, the further behind you fall. Exponentially, as growth feeds growth. Also, the longer you wait, the more cities you have, and the more turns of anarchy you get.

 

[gmaharriet]

lurker's comment: Also, keep in mind that the one thing that doesn't stop during your turns of anarchy is population growth. For however many turns of anarchy you get, try to MM each town for food, because in Republic a town (size 1-6) only supports one unit, but cities (size 7-12) will support 3 units. If you can get a town's pop to grow from 6 to 7 during anarchy, your unit support cost will be less than shown on CAII.

Don't forget to reset your MMing after you come out of anarchy.

 

[D'Artagnan59]

Bob, I see a flip danger in grabbing the Ivory. But we proudly take risks.

 

[vmxa]

Lurker:

Monarchy is only useful for AW games. In addition to all that Bede said, you do not have to maintain MP's, so you free up the troops to go to the front.

This often means that in a peaceful game, you can get by with a far lower troop count. MP duties start to really hurt as you get more towns and do not have more lux. Just the opposite of Republic.

 

[choxorn]

Follow this game and you will find out.

Has much to do with the objective and level and situation of the game. If you are going to war at Demi-god and above and lack luxuries then the Monarchy to Communism route is probably better. If, like this game, we are looking for a fast spaceship at Emperor, then Republic is a better choice for the higher commerce yields. Republic delivers as much as 100% more commerce which means more money available for science and entertainment. I have even played a warmonger's game staying in Republic the entire time but I had all possible luxuries.

In general Republic is the overwhelming favorite of the best players for almost all victory conditions because of the enhanced commerce. You need some skill and a good knowledge of the game mechanics to make it work, however. Take a look at some the GOTM spoilers to find out how it is done.

Really? I always seem to find that the increased commerce disappears with unit support. Then again, I've never used C3C Republic- I'll see if it works as soon as I can get my Conquests disc to work.

 

[CommandoBob]

Bob, I see a flip danger in grabbing the Ivory. But we proudly take risks.

Yeah, two cities very isolated from our capital and closer to two AI capitals than to Paris. We would need to rush a library in each city almost immediately, plus a harbor. Neither city would be very productive, netting only 1spt.

Are we that desperate for a third luxury?

Now, if that island West of France has a luxury...

 

[Tribute]

Yeah, two cities very isolated from our capital and closer to two AI capitals than to Paris. We would need to rush a library in each city almost immediately, plus a harbor. Neither city would be very productive, netting only 1spt.

Are we that desperate for a third luxury?

Now, if that island West of France has a luxury...

I thought it was a fourth lux. Guess not. And I don't think that it was the start of the turn. More like the middle with units able to move. I just didn't remember whether or not I was supposed to move them.

What are we researching? Construction? And are we able to trade with the AI yet besides for gold? How many settlers do we have to fill in the holes north? Were we able to form a blockade to block the Iro's from settling south?
Am I too lazy to look at the save?

The answer to the last is 'yes'. I'd look now though if there were a save....

 

[Ansar]

Am I too lazy to look at the save?

The answer to the last is 'yes'. I'd look now though if there were a save....

Your wish is my command, monsieur Tribute. It was actually on page 17.

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads11/D'Artagnan_1130_BC.SAV

 

[Tribute]

Thanks, but really?
Isn't that my save then? That's the only one on Page 17.

And the one's on Page 18 are the same date, so I'm rather confused....

 

[Bede]

@Commando,

I really can't get behind the idea of putting two towns in between the the Iro and the English with the Iro between the core and the towns. They represent not only a flip risk but it is just the kind of settlement that will create war and supporitng them will be impossible.

A third lux is important but not at the cost of two worthless towns that are an invitation to warfare with powerful neighbors.

@choxorn, If costs swallow the commerce gains in your Republics then four things are wrong:
1) too many troops
2) too many buildings
3) not enough towns, or the towns are too small
4) specialists are not being used properly

Yes, there will be a recession after a change to Republic. So manage the nation to recover quickly from it. One of the easiest ways to recover is shut off the science spending for a bit. The gap that CB's pictures show just a little over 10%, adjust the sliders accordingly if you need all those troops, disband the ones you don't need, and hire a few taxmen in the more corrupt towns. And choose building projects wisely and only build the structures you need.

 

[choxorn]

@choxorn, If costs swallow the commerce gains in your Republics then four things are wrong:
1) too many troops
2) too many buildings
3) not enough towns, or the towns are too small
4) specialists are not being used properly

I have a tendency for doing all four of these things, unforunately. So until I learn not to do that, I'll just use Monarchy.

 

[CommandoBob]

@Commando,

I really can't get behind the idea of putting two towns in between the the Iro and the English with the Iro between the core and the towns. They represent not only a flip risk but it is just the kind of settlement that will create war and supporitng them will be impossible.

I wasn't too happy with the plan, either, but thought it best to at least discuss the idea. Wasn't sure if my misgivings were justified or just cold feet.

A third lux is important but not at the cost of two worthless towns that are an invitation to warfare with powerful neighbors.

This is the kind of in-game judgement that I need to learn.

 

[Tribute]

At any rate, we can just trade for any excess ivory/pound their settlements later. The English look weaker, don't you think?

And we still need the save posted, CommandoBob.

So emphasis on libraries/markets (since we'll always be researching and have science % and entertainment % less than 100%). When should we build granaries? Do we build them in slow grow cities or rush them in fast grow towns or what? And do we put temples or libraries in outlier border towns? 1 happy face (and 1 less specialist) or more future research and culture once corruption is gone and the palace is moved?

And what to disband? Do we rid ourselves of curraghs or upgrade them to galleys? Same for warriors, spears, and archers. I would get rid of the warriors (we have no iron yet). And leave some for barb removal/avoidance of spawn camps until the lands are filled. We can use them for 1 turn rushes. (As soon as a corrupt town/city finish a building. A unit is disbanded so that the rush cost will decrease significantly [a little more than half]).

As for towns being small, harbors help as well as obsessive irrigation (that the AI always uses). The irrigation thingy allows for many specialists if we don't use the lux slider.

 

[CommandoBob]

And we still need the save posted, CommandoBob.

I haven't played any turns yet, so there is no save game to post.


From Post #346:

We need to consider the options and develop a plan to implement the chosen one.

I have injected my assessment of our situation into previous commentary but perhaps a review is on order. Our long term objective is Alpha C. To reach that objective we need a strong economy, both commerce and manufacturing and a large population base both inside and outside the core towns of Paris, Orleans, Rheims, Lyons and Chartres.

Our challenge is that outside that core of towns the terrain is not very favorable. And right now we lack strategic resources like iron (though we have horses) Our biggest lack is luxuries to support growth past six or seven in the core and maintain a high rate of research spending.

So, as I say more than once in every game - focus. Population and commerce and production, each in its place. What buildings will help us get there, what trades, what research path?

I don't think we have done this yet.

I've looked at the saved game and summarized some of the data and challenges we face. What I think Bede wants us to do is be specific. And plan.

We have a long term plan, get to Alpha Centauri.

Rather, we have a long term goal, get to Alpha Centauri. We do not have a plan on how to get there.

In the short term, do we want to blockade the horses from the Iroquois? We can do that this turnset. Any longer and there may a purple city sitting on some horses surronded by us guys in pink.
Do we switch to Republic this turnset? Can we afford to? Can we afford not to?
What are we going to do with our two newest settlers and the four settlers in the production pipeline? Make cities or add to exisiting cities?
What are our next three techs to learn or trade for?
What great wonders can we justify building to help us get to the stars? Some good ones are coming up soon (Smiths, Magellan, the Workshop, and the Observatory). If we want to build them we need to plan on how to get there first.
If we don't find iron then what?

I can muddle through these questions, but I do not want to commit it to a course that is unwise.

 

[Tribute]

Wait, so those plans were never put into action? Oh, I thought they were. How silly of me.

 

[CommandoBob]

Wait, so those plans were never put into action? Oh, I thought they were. How silly of me.

Well, I haven't really seen a plan. At least, I don't have one yet. I see possibilities, like the Ivory Grab, but those are just ideas of what we could do.

You and I have been spamming talking, but I don't think we have agreed on a course of action. The rest of the roster has been strangely quiet.

I have turns to play this evening in another SG, plus some RL stuff, but I would like to try to set some mid and short term goals. Short term for this turnset; Mid Term for 5 to 7 turnsets down the road. If time permits.

Those goals would not be set in stone; they would be a starting place for discussion (and correction and learning).

 

[Bucephalus]

The rest of the roster has been strangely quiet

You're right. OK here's a few thoughts: Sitting Bull will have horses soon enough - there are some just SW of Akwesasne, so the horses near the ruins are not an issue, although we ought to have them anyway for trading later.
He also has a spare source of iron; although he doesn't appear to have a mainland harbour yet, we could run a road up to Centralia to enable trade.
I think the best overall use of settlers would be to claim as much of the large island to the SW as possible; more cities = more commerce = faster research. The smaller island has a GH which could do with popping.
In the medium term- once we have swords- I would suggest a short-ish war with Sitting Bull to liberate the iron at Centralia, and get a common border with The Virgin Queen. She is weak, and has at least two luxuries.