D'Artagnan01: Low-level Training Day

[Ansar]

I need a skip. I will occasionally lurk, but I really need to get my AP assignmentss done, so I will be back the 13th.

 

[Bede]

CommandoBob - up
Tribute - on deck for the week-end
D'Artagnan59 - got a card yet?
TGOM -
Bucephalus
AnsarTheKing - skip til 7/13



Tribute - can only play on week-ends
D'Artagnan59 - waiting on a video card
Bahzell - lurking
Conquerdude - skip until heard from

 

[D'Artagnan59]

Yes. But I have trouble deleting one piece of software, so I need to go to a place.

 

[Tribute]

CommandoBob? (You know, I think I can play Friday this week, as my morning class ends on Thursday....)

 

[D'Artagnan59]

Should we build Cop in Lyons or Paris?

 

[CommandoBob]

CommandoBob? (You know, I think I can play Friday this week, as my morning class ends on Thursday....)

Sorry, RL was wild over the weekend (wild as in much busier and bumpier than I expected, not wild as in wine, women and song) and did not get a chance to respond.

I will try to get a strategy post put together this evening. I need to refocus on what we are doing and not doing.

Long Term Goal: Get to space first.

Mid Range Goal: Need Iron and Coal for a lot of things. We have no Iron and coal is a mystery, since we lack knowledge of Steam Power.

Short Range Goal: Need another city up north for a science farm.
Do something about that town in Little France that just cannot find the right spot (resettle).
Bunches of other things I cannot remember.

 

[D'Artagnan59]

Short term: Build Cop and Newt's, and sack Iron from 'Quois and Bob.

 

[Tribute]

Fun. Go get them. You've got at least 2 days (4 max) to post and have comments, especially if I get to play over the weekend.

 

[CommandoBob]

I must ask for a skip. I won't able to play before Thursday.

 

[Tribute]

Just play on Thursday. I'm okay. My morning class has ended anyway. (I can only play on Friday and after)

 

[CommandoBob]

Just play on Thursday. I'm okay. My morning class has ended anyway. (I can only play on Friday and after)

Tribute, go ahead and take the save. I won't be able to get to it tonight.

Be sure and check Bede's Post #553 for marching orders.

 

[Tribute]

Okay, then. I'll probably post my addition on Friday night. If not, Saturday.

 

[Tribute]

Sorry for the lateness. Do I lose reputation points?

550AD-650AD
1. And I had the save last in the BC’s…. So let’s see. Cop’s would complete in 20 turns. There is a possible Sistine’s Cascade, so that would be rather sad if we fail. Luckily, however, Leonardo’s Workshop has just been started, so that would absorb the cascade. Paris will make Cop’s in 15. All of the good tiles have been given to it. 14 can be done if you want no growth In between, but I believe that growth will still keep it at an overall of 14 turns. Lyons will complete Mag’s in 34 turns. Plenty of time for it to get its good tiles back from Paris. Lux remains at 0%. The core has too many luxuries to require an increase. The science farms are set to grow. Chemistry will come in 5 turns with +107gpt 617 gold. Start out buying everyone’s world maps. I’m not so sure about declaring war on the Scandinavians. They do have berserkers. And if they win with those, both Abe and us are dead. After all, they can attack from the ships to land. Very scary. It’s better the other way, even if Abe is closer to us. Then sell them back for a profit. About 100 gold. There is a lux deal available with Ragnar. Yet there is a saltpeter deal with Abe. Ragnar is actually willing to pay gpt, so the luxes go to him. Iro’s get Gunpowder for their Iron. But I’m not a warmonger, so this isn’t very helpful from my perspective. He has not connected any saltpeter yet. We have Navigation as a monopoly. Now: 686 gold and +133 gpt. America has Music Theory as a monopoly. All that’s left is an extra wines and extra set of horses. That was turn 0. Now for turn 1. Hit enter…. Rouen Library->Aqueduct in 34. I wonder what Brest means to do with the settler it is creating. Luckily, this can be changed. (26 turns left). Galleys start exploring. Send a worker to Rheims to restart growth.
2. The AI continue to streamline boats towards the east isle. Split some irrigate crews to road. Deals are about to expire with the Iro’s and Americans. Surprisingly, they are both right of passages.
3. Bayonne Aqueduct->Library in 14. The 6 southern workers were too much for our core. Send them north to the marshy lands. Continue explorations. Renew Iro RoP getting World Map and 1 gold. Remove our warrior from America into Scandinavia. The Scandinavians now get a RoP. We get 16g and World Map. America loses their RoP; they turn cautious. Whatever are we planning? Then I see a little problem. Maybe someone has a mental problem?! We have almost 0 defenders for our coastline. Counting, we have 16 ground and 3 trebs, 3 galleys and 19 workers. Just great. Somehow, we have an average military to America. And to Scandinavia, we’re weak. So I really think that Scandinavia would be a better partner. Okay. Upgrade 2 archers. Grenoble switched to caravel for our island holdings. Fix up our science farms. All are switched to military ground units. Toulouse switches to a pike in 1. So far, there’s been no wasteage! Sorry, though but Orleans switches from a university to a knight in 1. Rennes, which is quite productive, rushes the pike. After these military builds, I really don’t expect any more. Just walls in the island towns. Declare war on Abraham Lincoln. Ally with Raggy for 14gpt. We even get a free map. Sighs. Hit enter.
4. Some moves by the Scandinavians. Inca offer to trade maps. Not when it isn’t my turn, you freak! Orleans Knight->University in 17. Grenoble Caravel->Aqueduct in 20. Rennes Pikeman->Walls in 10. Toulouse Pikeman->Aqueduct in 25. And of course, our people love me so much that they give me a palace expansion (Sorry, Bucephalus, was it? They’re happy because of your trading skills. ) In fact, I get 3. Iro’s start Cop’s. Americans start JSBach’s. Yup, they’re gonna lose the war. Strausbourg becomes the central base for our science farms. Everything should be able to easily defend what we’ve got up there. A bunch of longbows, therefore, is heading south for our core. 2 medievals are sent to our small island. Rennes will get a pike and mace in the end. Explorations continue as well as troop placement. Warrior yellow continues through Viking lands. A rescue ship may come and get it, but I highly doubt it. And oh dear, chemistry is finished by the Vikings. As they only want about 250 g, I will pass. Science is down to 30%.
5. Okay. Egypt declares war on us through an American alliance. This could be a problem. But remember, if it were the Vikings, they actually had gpt to spend (without our adding to it). Egypt starts Leo’s. Chemistry->Physics in 6 (lux up to 10% because of Paris growing). Rheims Marketplace->University in 25. Marseilles Aqueduct->University. We need to counter Egypt’s sad problem. We’re gonna get the Scandinavian’s beaten up! For 20 more gpt and 15 g cash back, they declare and become gracious. Cops in 9. Mag’s in 29.
6. Chartes Marketplace-> University in 34. Planchet pike-> pike in 30. Amiens harbor->walls in 20. The longbows are almost at the core’s defense spot. Caravel and galleys become scouts for when danger comes. Iro’s learn Music, but don’t have chem. So we will give it to them if they have something else to offer, which they don’t. But Bach’s would be a good buffer if we wanted to avoid a cascade.
7. American and Egyptian galleys appear. But I think they were meant to land settler pairs. Rush the walls in case. Iro’s are refused a map trade. So they start Bach’s. Longbows enter position. Inca declare on the Vikings. Looks like someone’s gonna get owned, oh wait, the Inca are half an age behind.
8. Egyptians drop a sole archer next to Rennes, and nicely let him disembark on a tile we weren’t planning on using, ever. Bescanon Aqueduct->University in 25. Rennes walls->worker in 5. Amiens walls->library in 80. Our ship scouts see more. Remembering the dangers of WW, I attack instead of wait to be attacked by the archer, winning 2/4. Warrior Yellow scouts dangerously close to an Incan border, which may house the units of its allies. Map trades are just about worthless now, as we’re at war with 2 people out of the 7 rivals.
9. Poitiers longbow->longbow in 40. Iro’s restart Leo’s. Amiens is now fully connected so that any units that are dropped off can be attacked within the turn. Lucky me. A forest chop between Planchet and Cherbourg went to Planchet, wasting no shields. Cities have yet to change hands. That’s the problem with Berserkers. They don’t defend well. And when the AI don’t send the right muskets, the offensive will stall. Same with the opponents. After moving forward, they can’t defend against berserkers and they cannot advance. Nobody will win unless the Vikings call in some help (Koreans?). Physics in 1.
10. Oh no! The Inca have allied with the Americans and we lose spices. Oh no…. Physics->ToG in 6. Paris riots wasting precious time. Tours Aqueduct->University in 34. Avignon Aqueduct->University in 23. Mousqueton Treb->Treb in 30. Bordeaux riots. Many WLTKD’s stop. But we get a palace expansion?! Lux to 20%. We can’t afford any more of this. We do get war happiness though, which is nice. And oh no, the Iro’s know both the Egyptians and Americans. Luckily, the English are clueless. We cannot have war with the Iro’s, so what can we do?
So what will we do? This has been quite disastrous as a turnset. Or was it supposed to be this way? Should we ask the Iro’s for help? Did I do badly again? 1609 gold +64 gpt. ToG in 6.Well, at least we’re closer to space…. CoP’s in 5 (without disorder). Mag’s in 24. Good luck to the next player. Just don’t lose any cities, and I’d be content. I’d be happy if nobody else allied against us and if the Scandinavians started winning the war. Rogue states will die off, but if it starts winning, then peace can come (or a huge monster sized civ).

We’re up physics as a monopoly and down Music Theory as a common tech.

A pic of our lands:

A pic of the potential warzone:

And of course, the tragedy of a <<SAVE>>

 

[Tribute]

I reluctantly await your responses and comments. Please, let's hope nobody says, "Tribute, what were you thinking?!"

 

[CommandoBob]

I reluctantly await your responses and comments. Please, let's hope nobody says, "Tribute, what were you thinking?!"

Just from reading your notes, I think you over estimated what the AI would do to our core. A human would attack the core and do so in force. Not the AI.

I did look at the save before I saw I did not have time to play. I was planning to let Orleans finish the university before building a vKnight. (I traded Gunpowder to the Iroquois for Iron.) The other two cities with barracks needed their aqueduct and market and I planned to leave those builds intact. Get some happy and some smarts and then get strong. Once those builds were done then I planned some vKnights.

So I would not have built up the military as you did. Instead I would have fouced on building infrastructure for happiness and smarts.

However, I am not concerned about what you are thinking. I want to know what you learned. You think the turns went badly. Why do you think the turns went badly and what do you think caused that? (And they did not go as badly as my first ten!)

 

[Bede]

Tribute=Blue
Bede=Red

The 6 southern workers were too much for our core. Send them north to the marshy lands.

Actually they are not. There is a fair amount of terrain trimming to be done now that the core cities are getting close to the population limit, mines on plains and that kind of thing. And the marshy lands are pretty well drained, anyway.


All are switched to military ground units

Troops without barracks are not the best idea. Regulars are good for MP duty and not much else. Trebs in those towns are the better investment.

And oh dear, chemistry is finished by the Vikings. As they only want about 250 g, I will pass. Science is down to 30%.

Spend the money, It's not like we don't have any. Although for a worthless tech (no units, no buildings, only advances the tech tree) I suppose that's the best call. Had it been something more useful I would have bought it and moved on to the next one.

We need to counter Egypt’s sad problem. We’re gonna get the Scandinavian’s beaten up! For 20 more gpt and 15 g cash back, they declare and become gracious.

Not sure this was worth it. Neither Egypt or America will do much, if anything. And even Ragnar's famous 'Zerks aren't worth much in the hands of the AI. They can't come with enough force to be scary as they only come one or two at a time, and having three defenders in the threatened town is enough to hold them off. You don't need to win every battle, just the last one, if you have some reserves.

Poitiers longbow->longbow in 40


Nope, nope, nope. See above


Okay. Egypt declares war on us through an American alliance.

Oh no! The Inca have allied with the Americans and we lose spices.


This tells me we may have chosen the wrong opponent. Clearly Abe has enough resources to hire allies while Ragnar, for whatever reason, does not. That may have been visible in the diplomacy screens (relative cash, resource and tech positions, or history between them).


Physics->ToG in 6. Paris riots wasting precious time.


You get a pass on this one. It was not foreseeable.


Some general commentary:

No need to keep so much cash. Use it to rush important buildings. A good technique is the short rush. Universities for example are 200 sheilds and a town is making ten per turn. Pick an interim project that gets you within ten or twenty and spend cash on that. It ends up costing less and reduces overflow and waste compared to cash rushing to completion as it makes sure that all shields are used.

The coastal towns need to be checked for harbors. Every coastal tile worked by a citizen is two food and three gold and doesn't take any worker turns. Inland towns can be the high food and shield producers, so mined and irrigated fields can be given to them.

Pay closer attention to the allocation of the high gold fields. They should go to the cities with the lower corruption values. And one shield fields need to be allocated to the towns with the lower waste values as that last shield is the one that is lost to waste.

Try to allocate the fields in the north so that every town can run three specialists. There are a couple of places where that is not possible but if it can be done each town should have one irrigated food bonus and then it should be able to run three specialists without too mush food overage.

Micromanagement and field swapping is a subject that is most tedious, but in general, if you cycle through the towns at the beginning of the turn set and allocate the fields to suit the current objectives, and then do it every time a town grows it is not so bad as it seems. Think in terms of what is the best use of the most powerful fields and then allocate them to the projects that are most pressing. Sometimes it makes sense to pull everybody off, then start in the center and work out. first getting the food count to 24, then allocating shields to multiples of five or ten. You want to build troops in five if you can do it, bigger buildings obviously need more shields. Pay attention to possible overruns. If you are training knights the magic number is 14, cavalry 16, muskets 12, maces 10 or 8, pikes 6, and so on and so forth. You can also use cash to balance the build if you think in terms of ten shield increments.

All things considered a pretty reasonable set of turns. We got the war we wanted and there shouldn't be much pain.

Consider trading Navigation to Ragnar for about what we are paying him to fight the wars on the other continent. He can't trade it to Abe and it gives him a cascade building for Leo's instead of Copernicus.

Think about this for minute: Universities are only needed in the towns that are the really strong gold producers. They cost 2.5X a library (200 vs 80) and give the same improvement in output so the cost benefit ratio is weak. Better to make improvements that generate more commerce and cost less (harbors or acqueducts, for example) or military in towns with barracks.

 

[Tribute]

Oh, the units are just enough so that any naval assault with full caravels (1 from each civ) would be destroyed upon landing on the mainland. I actually didn't build much military. The islands are what are in danger.

As for what went badly. The AI war declarations went badly. At least we didn't lose much money. The only problem is the Iro threat. Should we ask them to ally with us against America? They're the only ones with the money and potential to have allies.

But what has been accomplished is mayhem. And our core will get plenty of universities from it. This was probably the real goal, and I hope it's enough.

Remember CoP's and Mag's are almost ready.

And as for Bede's comments, Scandinavia had plenty of gpt to spend in my turnset, so I really want to blame the RNG for making America immediately have an alliance with Egypt instead of Scandinavia doing that.

So I guess the real error was an alliance versus Egypt with Scandinavia? Without that, Scandinavia would ally Egypt against America. And oh dear.

And I tried doing 3 specialists per science farm, but only 1 of them will do that (the town with the rax and wines). The others will starve 1 fpt. And it will take a lot of MM if you want to do that. So I sort of set a citizen onto the coast just to make it a 0fpt surplus with 2 scientists.

Navigation is still a monopoly. And all the towns producing Universities already have Markets and 'ducts. And harbors if they would need them urgently.

As for non-barracks troop building. Eh heh.

 

[CommandoBob]

Tribute=Blue
Bede=Red

The 6 southern workers were too much for our core. Send them north to the marshy lands.

Actually they are not. There is a fair amount of terrain trimming to be done now that the core cities are getting close to the population limit, mines on plains and that kind of thing. And the marshy lands are pretty well drained, anyway.

Please explain more. I tend to follow the 'mine-green, irrigate-brown' mantra, but here you are advocating mining brown, at least in the core.

Why? Won't we learn Medicine and build hospitals and grow beyond size 12? Medicine is an optional tech, but seems to be neccessary. Is it really needed/helpful?

It seems like you are saying that we don't need super size cities to win, which is something I have never really considered.

All of which makes my brain hurt.

 

[vmxa]

Please explain more. I tend to follow the 'mine-green, irrigate-brown' mantra, but here you are advocating mining brown, at least in the core.

Why? Won't we learn Medicine and build hospitals and grow beyond size 12? Medicine is an optional tech, but seems to be neccessary. Is it really needed/helpful?

It seems like you are saying that we don't need super size cities to win, which is something I have never really considered.

All of which makes my brain hurt.

Lurker:

Not having looked at the save, I would hazard this guess. Once you have gotten to size 10-12 and will be able to generate 24 food at size 12, you can look to see if you need all that food.

If say you are size 12 and are making 26 food or better. You can then look to see about mining some tiles that were irrigate to get down to 24 food or whatever food is needed to be at the size you want.

This is what I routinely do in cities, grow them out and them buff for shields. As long as you do not need to make workers/settlers there you can spare the food.

The other aspect is will those extra shileds or commere get to the bottom line? If not, then no need doing any of that work.

 

[Tribute]

Ah. So the goal if we get to Sanitation (which we kind of have to) would be to get 26 food per city, so that we can have size 13 metros (and get the commerce/industrious bonuses as well as Republic bonuses in unit support)? And way before we even get there, the goal would be 24 so that we can max out on growth at 12? I see. Of course, we don't have any size 12's....