Darths and Droids Mafia- Game Thread

[Takhisis]

I never said I was a scanner. I did have a couple unpublished scans that hurt enormously as I couldn't post them, including jht, azza, Ravus/traius (at the time) being Innocent. I don't know why but choxorn gave me the scan result for Ravus even if I was killed that night.

 

[Jarrema]

Zack, I suspected you a little. Why? Because of flaws in my reasonoing, of course

1. I suspected you to be cultist right before my death. Why? Because you were so completly townie, you were a dream target for conversion. and, TBH, I never realised fully that in the light of my knowledge it was impossible for you to be converted.

2. I also suspected you to be second mafia for a moment. Mergle's scans seemed 'strange' to me, and at begining I was not sure if his scan on you is worth anything. It is interesting, in comparison to that, that I never suspected Mergle of being scum. Maybe its just your charm?

 

[Zack]

I never said I was a scanner.

Obviously. I was responding in kind to your post.

EDIT:

Zack, I suspected you a little. Why? Because of flaws in my reasonoing, of course

1. I suspected you to be cultist right before my death. Why? Because you were so completly townie, you were a dream target for conversion. and, TBH, I never realised fully that in the light of my knowledge it was impossible for you to be converted.

2. I also suspected you to be second mafia for a moment. Mergle's scans seemed 'strange' to me, and at begining I was not sure if his scan on you is worth anything. It is interesting, in comparison to that, that I never suspected Mergle of being scum. Maybe its just your charm?

(bold mine)

Visorslash made a comment in the Trade Federation QT about how I generally have a somewhat "abrasive" playstyle. I'm not sure I necessarily agree with that particular terminology, but the point is probably valid. My playstyle works well for pushing a wagon against my target and backing them into a corner; as such, if you look at games I play here, the amount of times the person lynched was the person I voted for / pushed to be lynched / aroused suspicion for. However, since lynched/killed townies very, very often view the people who caused their death as evil scum, it inevitably leads to people clamoring for my head when I'm not perfect, and after the game claiming either that they knew it was me all along or that they thought that it was me all along, regardless of whether or not they voted for me or I came remotely close to being lynched.

 

[Ravus_Sol]

I never said I was a scanner. I did have a couple unpublished scans that hurt enormously as I couldn't post them, including jht, azza, Ravus/traius (at the time) being Innocent. I don't know why but choxorn gave me the scan result for Ravus even if I was killed that night.

I just assume he sent you the scan result the night you died to mess with you. This is the evil GM that allowed peace mooning a cult buddy

Second, Ravus_Sol should write an instruction manual on how to be a perfect teammate, because he was the perfect teammate. He did a very good job of looking townie in the thread, demonstrated an impressive level of skill in planning behind the scenes and a remarkable skill for pinning down players' roles and abilities (seriously, he already knew Mergle was the scanner and almost knew as much as I did when I was converted, and I was the leader of the town network and he was just basing it all on speculation from the thread), as well as a willingness to accept a bussing for the good of the team, which admittedly came much faster than either of us were expecting.

Thanks Zack These games are just as fun as I remembered. Although my pinning down Mergle would have worked against me if you didn't get converted. My first targets would have been Mergle>Auto>Zack and wouldn't that have been a surprise for everyone when the cult accidentally knocked off the mafia. The resulting paranoia would have been fun but not as fun as the cult suddenly going active after Mech died and people overestimating it's power. The most fun I had in this was trying to act as town as possible (which included trying to save spaceman when I realised he was town).

*salutes* thank you everyone for not killing me off after I took over from Traius. It was a blast.

 

[Backwards Logic]

I was planning on flipping on Zack this next day phase. I just didn't expect Zack to be able to kill that night given the Orb was not in his possession. I was banking on topsecret and Gone 3 the Celt still being around (figuring Zack would sell a Buddhafish vig to Gone) and then throwing everything I had into getting Zack lynched. Proving Gone's innocence was already done, you couldn't vote for me, which left topsecret and Zack as the final two options for topsecret's vote. Figure he wasn't going to accuse himself, so I speculated I'd have at least a tie vote. Then, all I had to do was swing Gone around to my line of thinking. Maybe it would have worked, maybe not, but that last additional kill threw me and ended the game 'early.'

 

[mechaerik]

Re: not converting Azza:

I could only convert certain people. I had a scan allowing me to detect whether someone was convertable, and an ability to convert them. First two nights I could scan twice.

I actually scanned traius night one, but was blocked by a fish. BSmith gave no result.

 

[Zack]

@ BL - Why were you so intent that I was cult? The logic never made sense to me, considering as it was primarily "YOU ARE PALPATINE!!!" (which is a shoddy argument, to say the least) and conveniently ignored the mountain of evidence suggesting I was not cult (described earlier). Not to mention, there were certainly others who seemed much more likely candidates for being cult. Of course, your argument originated when I was still town...

 

[Takhisis]

A Cassandra truth, perhaps.

 

[Backwards Logic]

Because your whole argument hinged on you being scanned as town, and definitely not Cult. Mergle's death showed your scan as town was useless and couldn't be trusted. The way you drew up the dots and connected them left out the possibility of you being Cult, because you were so adamant you weren't. True townies never have to say they're town as part of a counter-argument, which ultimately was a portion of your arguments against mine. You killing Azza was the final straw, and I was right here - it was a power play disguised as an anti-Cult move. Unfortunately for me, I couldn't prove it in a giant there's-still-a-lot-of-people-left-so-let-me-convince-them-all-at-once argument, so I figured I could do it the same way you were planning to win - through process of elimination with smaller numbers. I knew Celt wasn't Cult. I also knew Buddha wasn't either when he didn't jump on the SamSniped lynch I fabricated. Topsecret had been mostly cleared and neither your or Mergle were intent to go after him, and you wouldn't change your tune on the last day to say that he was Cult - that would have been contradictory to everything you had said prior. You would have presented the Ravus_Sol vig as proof you weren't Cult, but I would have countered that you had to buss him due to the external pressures you were facing from me, Mergle, and others in-thread - he was going to die regardless. Again, it came down to numbers. I didn't have them when I needed them, and because of the extra kill I wasn't expecting cost me a shot at going after you in a fight I could possibly win.

 

[Backwards Logic]

Another miscalculation on my end - I had figured he couldn't vig via peace moon, forgot about the stormtrooper. Oh well.

 

[Zack]

Spoiler :

Because your whole argument hinged on you being scanned as town, and definitely not Cult.

Not really. I was certainly NOT the cult leader, which you would have known (since mechaerik was clearly revealed as "cult LEADER" so I couldn't have been cult originally. Here's the timeline I have posted countless times in this thread.

(At this point in time, I am TOWN.)

Nights 4, 5: I was protected by Autolycus, and thus immune to conversion. This ability to protect the target from ALL actions taken against them had been proven (mechaerik even said publicly that his "scan" <conversion attempt> of me was blocked by a giant fish, i.e. Autolycus).

Day 6: I use my limited-use vigilante ability on mechaerik. If I'm cult, this makes no sense. No one was voicing suspicion of mechaerik in the thread, and the tracking result in private showed that he was not killing people (there was nothing in the update about someone attacking me). There was no reason to bus mechaerik, and it wouldn't really make sense to do so. It limits the number of conversions, draws attention to the cult prematurely, and kills the cult leader... who wasn't in danger of being killed.

Night 6: I order Gone 3 the Celt to kill mechaerik (he decides he wants to kill The Black Knigh instead). I order johnhughthom to block mechaerik (which he does, preventing mecha from converting anyone, including me).

Day 7: I vote for mechaerik and try to lynch him, even over a scanned mafia I revealed. This was when you were the most vocal about my evil ways - when I was town.

Night 7: I order Gone 3 the Celt to kill mechaerik (he does). I order johnhughthom to block mechaerik (which he does NOT, but everyone thinks he does, meaning that mechaerik again couldn't have converted anyone).

Since mechaerik is dead, the cult can no longer convert anyone, meaning you either believed I was converted Night 3 (if you believe the scan, which there was no reason not to until the last day; Night 1-3 if you don't) then inexplicably attacked my cult leader.

(At this point, I am now CULT.)

That's the argument I provided time and time again in the thread, when I was town and when I was cult. The scan proved I was not mafia, not that I was not cult. The above sequence proved that I could not possibly be cult (again, because everyone thought JHT did in fact send the order to block mechaerik, something you never challenged).

Mergle's death showed your scan as town was useless and couldn't be trusted.

There wasn't any reason to believe that Mergle's scan was nonexistent, only that he did not use it the nights he killed. He correctly identified that you had no beard, in addition to the points I already made in the thread after you made the accusation.

The way you drew up the dots and connected them left out the possibility of you being Cult, because you were so adamant you weren't. True townies never have to say they're town as part of a counter-argument, which ultimately was a portion of your arguments against mine.

I made that argument when I was town. Additionally, this is the "No true Scotsman" fallacy - 'no true townie defends themselves.'

You killing Azza was the final straw, and I was right here - it was a power play disguised as an anti-Cult move.

God, I hate having to make the same points OVER and OVER again...

I have covered this a million times. Mergle and Jarrema, both considered by all to be super-townies at the time, suggested the idea. It was logically sound. Azzaman was an obvious target for cult conversion, for reasons I and others have articulated countless times, a plain fact you refuse to acknowledge because hindsight is 20/20. Furthermore, KILLING AZZAMAN WAS NOT MY IDEA. For the fiftieth time. Just because I gave the order does not mean it was my idea. And I would have down the exact same thing as town.

Further, it makes absolutely no goddamn sense as a "power play." If that was the intention, why not just have Ravus kill azzaman?

I knew Celt wasn't Cult.

How? Because he murdered cult at night, and I murdered cult - with a vigilante ability - during the day? And since you never questioned JHT's roleblock on mechaerik, you're suggesting that you "knew Celt wasn't cult" because he killed mechaerik, even though he initially straight-up DEFIED orders in order to avoid killing mechaerik... but I wasn't cleared for using both of the only uses of my vig ability to kill cult?

I also knew Buddha wasn't either when he didn't jump on the SamSniped lynch I fabricated.

You completely cleared Buddha because of something so trivial as that, but you weren't convinced by the mounds of evidence supporting me?

Topsecret had been mostly cleared

The ONLY thing clearing topsecret was Mergle's scan! Why does Mergle's scan clear topsecret, but where I am concerned it's a total lie and evil conspiracy?

and neither your or Mergle were intent to go after him, and you wouldn't change your tune on the last day to say that he was Cult - that would have been contradictory to everything you had said prior.

I DID say in the thread that either Buddhafish or topsecret was the last cult, so you're blatantly wrong here.

You would have presented the Ravus_Sol vig as proof you weren't Cult, but I would have countered that you had to buss him due to the external pressures you were facing from me, Mergle, and others in-thread - he was going to die regardless. Again, it came down to numbers. I didn't have them when I needed them, and because of the extra kill I wasn't expecting cost me a shot at going after you in a fight I could possibly win.

I still don't understand it. You "cleared" other people like Buddhafish and topsecret on extremely flimsy evidence for the former, and for something that I shared with the latter. I don't know why you were so fixated on me this game, but it was certainly frustrating and inexplicable. Of course you can justify it because of hindsight and alignment reveal, but the logic was nonsensical, and the only possible REAL evidence of me being cult -- that JHT forgot to send orders, and was killed so he couldn't reveal this -- was not mentioned a single time by anyone, including you.

 

[johnhughthom]

I ordered JHT to roleblock mechaerik Night 6... but he decided not to.

For the record, I followed every request you sent me, except that one. I did not decide, out of the f'in blue not to roleblock him that night, I was busy and didn't get the pm in time to send in orders.

Still, oops...

 

[NinjaCow64]

There was a post somewhere Zack, I would have pointed it out if I wasn't already dead, where you used Mergel's scan as proof even though you thought that he was Mafia. Although I didn't suspect you until the very end of my unlife.

<shamelessplug>Anyway, everyone should join my new game!</shamelessplug>

 

[Zack]

I forgot that Mergle scanned askthepizzaguy and myself Night 1 and Night 2, respectively. He deserved to lose, after metagaming like that.

 

[Backwards Logic]

Spoiler :

Your argument prior to your conversion is true, accurate, and solid. It's after Azza's death where I have a real problem (and directly accuse you of such) with your actions. Yes, earlier my arguments were poorly based. However, they provided the springboard to keep my suspicion on you.

There wasn't any reason to believe that Mergle's scan was nonexistent, only that he did not use it the nights he killed. He correctly identified that you had no beard, in addition to the points I already made in the thread after you made the accusation.

Being dead and all, I couldn't exactly confirm Mergle's scan was in fact real per Sam's scan of him. It boils down to this: if you can't trust the source, how can you trust the results?

I made that argument when I was town. Additionally, this is the "No true Scotsman" fallacy - 'no true townie defends themselves.'

You're referring to the wrong argument. I'm referring to the one with the big spoilers where you claim Mergle is TF and Buddha is Cult. You pretty much say the whole time 'I'm townie because,' ignoring that if you're Cult, of course you're going to say these things, during which you use the aforementioned TF Mergle's scan as proof of your innocence.

I have covered this a million times. Mergle and Jarrema, both considered by all to be super-townies at the time, suggested the idea. It was logically sound. Azzaman was an obvious target for cult conversion, for reasons I and others have articulated countless times, a plain fact you refuse to acknowledge because hindsight is 20/20. Furthermore, KILLING AZZAMAN WAS NOT MY IDEA. For the fiftieth time. Just because I gave the order does not mean it was my idea. And I would have down the exact same thing as town.

Further, it makes absolutely no goddamn sense as a "power play." If that was the intention, why not just have Ravus kill azzaman?

Bolding mine which I'll get to. It doesn't matter who's idea it was, the fact that you did kill him is what set me off (I think I said that before too...?). He got the Orb, you wanted it, he turns up dead the next night by your hand. How is that not suspicious? Lastly to your point, had Ravus killed him it would have looked infinitely worse for you (though could have been argued that it was an obvious frame). You want Orb. Azza gets Orb. Empire kills Azza. Now Zack gets Orb. Compared to the above, I think we can all say that would have looked way worse for you, no?

How? Because he murdered cult at night, and I murdered cult - with a vigilante ability - during the day? And since you never questioned JHT's roleblock on mechaerik, you're suggesting that you "knew Celt wasn't cult" because he killed mechaerik, even though he initially straight-up DEFIED orders in order to avoid killing mechaerik... but I wasn't cleared for using both of the only uses of my vig ability to kill cult?

Because he appeared in the thread with the Dreadnought kills and the Stormtrooper kills. Unless he can do two things at once in one writeup, he couldn't be Cult. This was stated too.

You completely cleared Buddha because of something so trivial as that, but you weren't convinced by the mounds of evidence supporting me?

I wouldn't say completely cleared, but I felt he was more likely town than you. He used his abilities in a pro-town way, didn't bite on my bait, and his claims felt legitimate. As I said before, your stuff had this manufactured feel.

The ONLY thing clearing topsecret was Mergle's scan! Why does Mergle's scan clear topsecret, but where I am concerned it's a total lie and evil conspiracy?

You made it seem to be more than just the scan, that somehow his actions also cleared him. I also got no response from you on a PM I sent a while back (before Auto, Sam, and myself died) regarding him (and others).

I still don't understand it. You "cleared" other people like Buddhafish and topsecret on extremely flimsy evidence for the former, and for something that I shared with the latter. I don't know why you were so fixated on me this game, but it was certainly frustrating and inexplicable. Of course you can justify it because of hindsight and alignment reveal, but the logic was nonsensical, and the only possible REAL evidence of me being cult -- that JHT forgot to send orders, and was killed so he couldn't reveal this -- was not mentioned a single time by anyone, including you.

I'll admit, there's a very high chance (read: 99.9% chance) I don't pick up on the missed roleblock. I'm sorry you pinged my scumdar hard. It maybe not be for 'right' or 'logical' reasons, but my perception of you was you weren't town. Your end game moves (bussing Ravus) and your arguments to who else had to be scum mirrored my moves in NOTW XVIII: Castle Stonemoor, where I was converted midway through. I bussed my teammate Lekkric (though he was inactive), bs'd my way through the next few lynches on that credit (and credit established prior to my conversion), and killed my way to victory. The parallels were there, I saw the similarities, and I went with it. I'm sorry I fixated on you, but that's the way it is.

For what it's worth, you did play an excellent game. You made the right moves when you needed to, you stayed consistent from day one to the end game, and you ultimately pulled off a great win. Congrats.

 

[Zack]

Spoiler :

I'll admit, there's a very high chance (read: 99.9% chance) I don't pick up on the missed roleblock. I'm sorry you pinged my scumdar hard. It maybe not be for 'right' or 'logical' reasons, but my perception of you was you weren't town. Your end game moves (bussing Ravus) and your arguments to who else had to be scum mirrored my moves in NOTW XVIII: Castle Stonemoor, where I was converted midway through. I bussed my teammate Lekkric (though he was inactive), bs'd my way through the next few lynches on that credit (and credit established prior to my conversion), and killed my way to victory. The parallels were there, I saw the similarities, and I went with it. I'm sorry I fixated on you, but that's the way it is.

That makes a lot more sense. I am, of course, also inherently biased in my perception of the logic behind cases made against me, so it may very well be that I'm not being fair.

 

[Visorslash]

Spoiler :

What? You expected something here?

 

[choxorn]

chox, did I save two townies?

Kind of- at least, you brought the number of townies that would have died if you hadn't used your ability down by 2. You prevented your own death the first time you used the ability, which counted as one (and also convinced some people to switch orders, causing JoanK to die when SamSniped would have originally died) You didn't directly do much of anything the second time you used it, but your use of it convinced Xenoneb to switch from killing john (who wasn't protected) to killing Jarrema (who was protected by himself), which I decided to count as another one to give you your PG.

I did a bad job of writing some of them- a few are arbitrarily too difficult for no reason, and a few too easy. For example, CivCube and topsecret both had a "player dies" PG which I probably should have made "outlive player," which would have been less absurdly easy.

I had my concerns about the game's balance (it seemed like every townie and his mother could avoid nightkills, or had a protection ability)

Yeah, I started to get worried about that after the kills averaged one per night for so long. I thought that the cult might recruit one or two of those guys, but mechaerik had terrible luck early on with his scan. It also hurt that Visorslash died early, as the Orb could have given him a kill-through-anything ability, and that BSmith died early, as one of his abilities made him immune to some of these.

but seeing it now, I think it was pretty balanced. The mafia had bad luck with the Day One lynch and the RNG (the Trade Federation were all lynched by a grand total sum of ONE vote over the second-place lynch candidate three ties, and one lynch was by only one vote), but Mergle's excellent play still nearly won them the game, counter-balancing the bad luck. The cult had bad luck (I targeted mechaerik early, mechaerik had atrocious luck with his conversions), but the circumstances in which I was converted provided me with the best alibi out of everyone in the game.

Technically, one wasn't actually a tie because of Mat's doublevote, but yeah. You hit the nail on the head here. The game balance mainly only seems a bit off because of all the bad things that happened to the anti-townies early on. A few things going differently could have caused a big swing in the other direction, which is probably my my only big disappointment with the game.

In particular, the mechaerik-SouthernKing tie was a huge difference-maker. mechaerik had a one-time immunity to anything that would kill him, whether it was lynch, night-kill, peacemoon... anything. If the tie went against mechaerik, he would have lost the immunity and probably died shortly after. In addition, Optical would have replaced SouthernKing, and presumably been of more help to the mafia than SouthernKing was. At the very least, he might have managed to avoid death a bit longer. He also had a really useful ability that he only used once, ineffectively.

Because the RNG voted for SK, the mafia continued their run of bad luck, mechaerik survived just long enough to convert you, and it made all the difference in the galaxy.

The game ended in a nailbiter, regardless, and could very well have swung in favor of any one team, although the town was admittedly the least likely team to win at that point.

Very true, though I must say that I thought the town was the most powerful faction pretty much from BSmith's lynch almost to the end, even with you and Mergle playing so well. It took a few days before I started thinking one of you guys could actually snatch victory from the jaws of defeat.

In short, after a certain point it probably became clear to choxorn that either you or I was going to win the game, barring something bizarre (killing each other at night, Gone 3 the Celt suddenly going rogue, etc.)

I actually thought that, had Mergle avoided lynch on the last day, you two killing each other was one of the most likely possibilities. He already told me he was going to kill you, and I thought you would either kill him or ask Gone 3 the Celt to kill him for you if you couldn't lynch him.

He debated between killing you and killing Autolycus for a while, and decided there were more scenarios in which killing Autolycus led to him winning than there were scenarios in which killing you led to him winning.

Interestingly enough, I believe I would have played the game in almost exactly the same way had I never been converted. This is why my behavior appeared consistent after the conversion (as noted by CivCube in the dead QT).

Considering how much you agreed with Jarrema, Autolycus, and Mergle, you're probably right, although you couldn't have night-killed if you hadn't been converted, which might have made things play out slightly differently.

I lie as little as possible in mafia games (excluding things like "I am town" when I'm really mafia, or claiming I'm the scanner when I'm really relaying someone else's scan results), which means I play in a very different style than someone like Askthepizzaguy, who lies all the time regardless of alignment. I don't like risking being caught in a web of my own lies, so I tell the truth when I can, or when that isn't feasible, stretch the truth or tell the truth in a misleading manner, which I believe is more effective (CivCube noted something similar in the dead QT). If you look at my posts in the thread, and my PMs in private, I didn't lie very much (and neither did Mergle, other than the nights when he was killing people; and even then, they were still true facts, but not as a result of his scan), if at all. Other than saying "I'm not cult," I pretty much tell the truth, including my defense for why I wasn't cult, referencing private conversations, and so forth.

I'm pretty much the same with not lying. Usually I don't say much of anything about myself if I don't have to, really.

 

[Gone 3 the Celt]

Well played, Zack.

 

[Xenoneb]

Yeah. Well played. Just to let you know, I really thought you were cult, I wasn't just preOMGUSing.