Will there would be something that differentiates them; it'd just be different difference in every game. If there were more religions, they'd have to come up with more beliefs to have enough to go around.
Deconstruction of IGN article
- Thread starter Pouakai
- Start date
Will there would be something that differentiates them; it'd just be different difference in every game. If there were more religions, they'd have to come up with more beliefs to have enough to go around.
Louis XXIV
Le Roi Soleil
Well, they start as a blank slate, but they diversify themselves with things you select.
It would have nothing to do with prejudice, just reality based on each religions seperate beliefs, which each religion is built on. Each religion would be important to the "believers", yet would of course have to be different from each other. There has to be wonderous variety and diversity here. The prejudice argument is getting very old. Keep that to real life, where it is just an excuse for animosity. In the game keep religions diverse and different, which is how they should be. So therefore benefits should be in some respects different, not all though. Otherwise you might as well just have one all encompassing religion. If thats the case just leave it out.
Now imagine I found Judaism and it develops from my choices into a clone of Islam, wouldn't tha be disconcerting. Especially if the player is Jewish? LOL! I shouldn't think too much, but this does strike me as funny. Joking aside the best thing about religions is that they differ. To regard them as anything else calls mankind stupid, which it is not because look at all of the wonderous possibilities and thoughts brought on by one's beliefs. Religion is a guide for you through life. Even if you do not believe in god, you believe in something that drives you on. This is how I see it.
anandus
Errorist
But the religions in game are diverse. By definition, as no two religions will have the same belief.
The "believers" would be able to roleplay their own religion by choosing the beliefs that they think would fit in well with their own religion
Well not only believers, of course, also people who would like to play a 'realistic religion game'.
You can make a religion just like you think it ought to be, or the exact opposite if that's what you want.
Yes, but what exactly differs Christianity from Islam? Spoken in game terms, of course (say: bonuses). Who will decide, how to implement each religion? Don't you see the minefield, here?
After all, the said jewish player may develope "his" religion exactly as *he* think it should be (if he pretends to roleplay and not only maximize game benefits). So, if he creates a second islam - it's *his* choice!
But this is exacly how it will be! Remember? A bonus taken will make this bonus unavailable for all other religions.
So: everything we want - without the danger of offend anybody!
I'm fine with this approach!
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Edit: anandus was faster...
Just as I said. So there is no need for you to be prejudice. Now is there? I mean what I said is fairly straight forward. Its not very difficult to understand that I was joking in the 2nd paragraph. Wow!
But the religions in game are diverse. By definition, as no two religions will have the same belief.
The "believers" would be able to roleplay their own religion by choosing the beliefs that they think would fit in well with their own religion
Well not only believers, of course, also people who would like to play a 'realistic religion game'.
You can make a religion just like you think it ought to be, or the exact opposite if that's what you want.
Exactly what I posted there are no buts about it. Where did this but religions in the game are diverse, come from??? I said that in my quote.
Now we all know in the game religions have to be different. My second paragraph of my original quote, reinforces my ideas about how I see religion. But it should not deter the fact that in the game religions are to be different. I just simply stated that there will be no need for prejudice. Thats all.
In any case there will still have to be some differences in apparent religions. They cannot be just different by name. I wonder how these will be portrayed. Shrines, buildings, omens? There will have to be something. Maybe relation wise. Christians and Moslems get a diplomatic hit when trying to be friends. Things like that. No one knows its all speculation. Prepare for the Crusades! Or Buddhism against Confucianism an even worse friend maker! I cannot wait to see how they approach this. However they do this, it will make at least someone mad, because they can't just leave things within a game perimeter, they have to associate this kind of thing with real life. Truly people it is just a game.
Sorry if I didn't understand you right or if I wasn't abel to make my point as clear as I wanted. Obviously enough, I'm no nativ speaker.
First of all, I don't think I did write anything about *me* being prejudiced. (Where does *this* come from? Additionally, reading your reply to anandus, I got the impression that we shouldn't differ at all, so why the offense? Maybe I *really* missed your point?)
What I *tried* to say is, that any premade bonus only can be based on prejudice, as a simple "+1 happienes" (or whatever) can *never* reflect the deepness of a religious belief.
All of this is an academic discusion anyway, as the designers decided to take another approach.
But just for the sake of being concrete: *What* sort of game bonus do you think as appropriate for real existing religions without being inexcusable superficial at all?
Please, don't take this as a personal offense, as this is *not* intended at all! I just wonder, which choices could the *game designers* do, without annoying anybody?
Hey, people are annoyed here, only because the leaders don't speak the correct language! What do you think will happen with "premade religious bonuses"? (As you said yourself: Somebody *will* go mad!)
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Edit: your joke was recognized as such. (The LOL was a strong indication for this.
) Anyway, it was sort of a chain link in your argumentation chain and therefore worth a reply.
anandus
Errorist
Well, they'll have different symbols, and maybe the pictures for the temples will look different?
As being both Abrahamic faiths you'd actually expect a diplo-bonus
No its my fault I should have explained my points better. I take no offense whatsoever and hope I gave none. I think the diversity should probably end at buildings. A mosque for Islam, and a church for christians for example. But the rest should be up to the player and the AI civs to decide. AI civs will play a role in creating religions within the game as well.
As far as premade religious bonuses. I feel they will help your civ grow and prosper. If your going for a culture victory, you'll try to engineer your religion to help in that goal. Choosing "believes" that enhance culture (If I understand how this works correctly, which I do not I am in the dark, but truly find it interesting.). Or at least that would surely be one strategy.
I also think it would be interesting if somehow there was a chance a neighboring religion could influence your own and vice versa. Some aspect of theirs kind of molds with yours over time. Or the complete opposite, where the religions deter each other and cause diplomatic problems. Relations and diplomatic history certainly could have an active role in how religions develop, and how they are viewed abroad.
Well, they'll have different symbols, and maybe the pictures for the temples will look different?
As being both Abrahamic faiths you'd actually expect a diplo-bonus
Your right of course that could be the case. This will surely be an addictive game, because no game played will be the same as the one before it.
Louis XXIV
Le Roi Soleil
Well, that's also just flavor, right? I assume a Mosque and a Church would have the same benefits? In that case, I wholeheartedly endorse the idea. The only question for Christianity is do you want a Church, Cathedral, or Basilica.
There are a few religions that might be more difficult. I'm not sure what the building for Tengriism is, for example.
Well, obviously we *do* mean the same thing! Maybe it was just a different understanding of what a "premade bonus" will be?
*My* understanding: Christianity *always* gets +1 happiens, Islam *always* 10% fighting bonus and Judaism *always* +1 gold/turn (or something alike). You see why I think, something like this can only be based on prejudice?
I really think, this would be incredible awful and I'm happy about the way more flexible approach of "Gods & Kings" - just as you, obviously. Tailoring your religion to your needs is so much more fun - and less biased.
Cheers,
Deggial
ShahJahanII
Homesick Alien
I was confused with the 2 of you for a while too
But I agree with both of you.
The names of the religions don't matter. I will probably always pick Tengriism (cool logo) and name it Pastafarianism (for fun).
I am not sure what Tengrism building is either. Perhaps the Tenri shrine or something. All of these buildings should look different yes, but give the same benefit. So yes the buildings are just for flavor. That would be the best way, this way people can identify the building with the religion.
An interesting idea would be for these buildings to upgrade over time. Eventually going from humble religious buildings up to a cathedral or great mosque. Or as tech is researched certain religious upgrade buildings become available. The player can choose to build them or not. But at each level the distinct buildings for each religion are equal to each other.
Indeed the base religions should start out equal. The player then decides what bonuses to choose. Perhaps through exploring villages some religious bonuses could be found, so there is some randomness as well. The point is too keep everyone happy and in that I whole heartedly agree with you. And cheers to you as well.
I was confused with the 2 of you for a while too
But I agree with both of you.
The names of the religions don't matter. I will probably always pick Tengriism (cool logo) and name it Pastafarianism (for fun).
Great idea! LOL!
The whole reason all Religions were identical in Civ IV is that Firaxis was terrified of giving them specific attributes, because they were afraid of angering people... religion is a touchy subject. The new G&K system solves that problem beautifully, by letting the player pick his own attributes. It allows for religions to be customized without risking anger over "My Religion is underpowered, you Infidel Firaxis slime! Why do you hate my religion??!?!"
No bonuses for the religion, but they could tie different beliefs to different religions (for example, something referring to heaven won't be available to the Hindu or Buddhist, while nothing referring to nirvana or reincarnation will be available to Christians or Muslims) and those beliefs have different bonuses.
Aussie_Lurker
Deity
My only problem with the religion systems is that the beliefs of that religion are *fixed*-something we've *never* seen historically. I hope that-at the least-the Piety Policy "Reformation" might allow you to change *some* of your beliefs.
The other thing that worries me is Piety itself-because you can have Free Religion *and* Theocracy at the same time, it just doesn't make any sense. I wonder how they plan to deal with issues like this!
Aussie.
The other thing that worries me is Piety itself-because you can have Free Religion *and* Theocracy at the same time, it just doesn't make any sense. I wonder how they plan to deal with issues like this!
Aussie.
mitsho
Deity
Well, that's a design choice they made for Civ V and it's only fair that they stick with it. Talent/Skill Trees are something that can be found in many contemporary games and the thinking behind is that it's better gameplay to let the player build something over the course of the game instead of changing it when you want it. The one exception I see is Diablo 3 going the exact opposite route, so maybe that will change again for Civ 6 ;-)
But let's try it first, right. I get your criticism, but I guess that's a point where gameplay trumps realism, and one shot bonus seem to be more fun than long-term ones. And short term bonus are a problem for switching... Also you can argue that Religious Dogmas actually build upon each other, even when reevaluating and changing themselves...
I can see Reformation as having a one off bonus of allowing you to change once as that might be fun and completely in tone with the name of the policy. But that's a balance issue and this social policy might be highly specialized and maybe every policy should have some general worth...
I do think Piety will be completely overhauled. Reformation does make sense as a policy, but f.e. Mandate of Heaven doesn't work as a name anymore. Theocracy is debateable. There needs to be a culture tree and they imho need some space for espionage-related policies. It's too early to tell anything on that I guess.
But let's try it first, right. I get your criticism, but I guess that's a point where gameplay trumps realism, and one shot bonus seem to be more fun than long-term ones. And short term bonus are a problem for switching... Also you can argue that Religious Dogmas actually build upon each other, even when reevaluating and changing themselves...
I can see Reformation as having a one off bonus of allowing you to change once as that might be fun and completely in tone with the name of the policy. But that's a balance issue and this social policy might be highly specialized and maybe every policy should have some general worth...
I do think Piety will be completely overhauled. Reformation does make sense as a policy, but f.e. Mandate of Heaven doesn't work as a name anymore. Theocracy is debateable. There needs to be a culture tree and they imho need some space for espionage-related policies. It's too early to tell anything on that I guess.
Louis XXIV
Le Roi Soleil
Actually, it's not fixed. It expands (you add more abilities by accumulating faith points).
I don't know how the Piety tree will fit in. The names themselves might have an awkward at best fit since both are independent representations of the same historical thing. However, if we're talking about place in the tech tree where the reformation took place, you'll see religion declining in importance for your game.
When they say that the importance of Religion will decline in later eras, I think they're talking about the impact it will have on Diplomatic modifiers. The actual bonuses provided by Beliefs seem just as strong in the late game as they are in the early game.
And yeah, I would expect the Piety tree to be substantially reworked.
And yeah, I would expect the Piety tree to be substantially reworked.
