Defeat Into Victory III

rhodie

Bwana M'Kubwa
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Defeat Into Victory III is a very large map scenario depicting the historic WWII 1942-45 struggle for control of Malaya, Netherlands East Indies, Burma, India and western China. The huge Axis forces of Japan and Thailand were the attackers against an inadequate Allied force from British India, Burma, Netherlands East Indies and Nationalist China supported by small USA detachments.

Pitted against them all were the forces of Nature.

583MB

This is not a normal Conquest game. It is based on historical fact, with the number of towns and military that existed in South East Asia during December 1941.
Unlike Civilization III, no towns were completely destroyed during this conflict, so install Skyer2’s ‘no-raze’ patch (included in the main zip) and use its exe to play this scenario.
 

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Civinator

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rhodie... Congratulations on completing this Great Game to Honor your Father :clap:
I completely second this. :agree: Such a lot of effort invested in this scenario. :hatsoff: I hope Flintlock finds a fix to the mobile setting of aircraft (or you set them immobile and operating like normal Civ 3 aircraft), which can be destroyed by any combat unit moving into the tile holding that aircraft. At present even an attacking snake still can shoot down a heavy bomber without any defense of the aircraft.
 

rhodie

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I completely second this. :agree: Such a lot of effort invested in this scenario. :hatsoff: I hope Flintlock finds a fix to the mobile setting of aircraft (or you set them immobile and operating like normal Civ 3 aircraft), which can be destroyed by any combat unit moving into the tile holding that aircraft. At present even an attacking snake still can shoot down a heavy bomber without any defense of the aircraft.
Thank you Civinator and thank you for your support during the creation period.

As far as aircraft settings are concerned, none are set as immobile and none have the ‘re-base' facility. Instead, each aircraft has an operating range that is a specific fraction of the actual range of that aircraft type. The player can only manually move it in accordance to those settings. Just like the settings of the original Civ III, aircraft can only move so far, but unlike that game, it doesn’t crash. Pity.

However, at no time during hundreds of tests did I see the AI moving any aircraft under its command to a point on the map where a land unit (like a snake) could attack it. Instead it ignored the lack of 're-base' and moved aircraft within its cities and carriers.
 

Civinator

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However, at no time during hundreds of tests did I see the AI moving any aircraft under its command to a point on the map where a land unit (like a snake) could attack it. Instead it ignored the lack of 're-base' and moved aircraft within its cities and carriers.
It is not only a problem of attacking land combat units, but also of attacking naval and air combat units. This all is very interesting and I will watch this in a game in Debug Mode when having the time for it! :)
 
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Snodmaulvenn

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First impression review after playing few turns as China. Is it on purpose that Nature faction cities can't be conquered, i couldn't attack ? As China i sold oil to Britain for 10000 and that i think is huge boost for China to knock out Japan. Also i started one game as Japan and i couldn't produce land fighting units in any city. Interface and terrain look great and also tech tree.
 
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rhodie

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Thank you for your review Snodmaulvenn.

Nature cannot rebuild cities and have therefore very strong defenses. As point 14 of the 'About this scenario' document mentions, it is suggested that players concentrate on the human enemy and stay away from Nature.

The actual conflict began with Japan having huge armies all over South East Asia. So that the Japanese don't overwhelm their opponents, the scenario is set that the Japanese cannot build any more units until they have passed later historic events (technologies). To simulate that trickle-down process, many units can only be built by specific companies at specific times.

On the other hand the Allies in South East Asia were totally unprepared as their efforts were focused on Europe. They adopted a defensive withdrawal to slow down the Japanese advance as they waited for whatever reinforcements the European theatre could send.
 

CorvusFortis

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I made 5-6 turns as China. I must say, visuall part is amazing. Everything looks fantastic - units, interface, terrain.

Regarding gameplay - nature civ is something. While Japan just bombing my cities, Nature took 2 or 3 already, Must admit, didn't expect them to be so agressive at all.

I really like implementation of land transport and movable aviation, despite AI not properly using them. It is not a huge advantage to the player, but give more choices and fun overall.

I am a bit confused by settlers - really, it is the first scenario I played, in which settlers are buildable during WW2. I wasn't prepared. My first reaction was to try to spam them by habit at rear parts of empire, but nature onslaught made me quickly give up on the idea.

All in all, very fresh and interesting experience. Thank you for your effort.
 

rhodie

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Thank you for your appraisal CorvusFortis.

Nature is something else but then at that the time Nature did account for more casualties than enemy action.

I appreciate your report and I’m pleased that you have enjoyed the experience so far.
 

Takhisis

¡Patria y vida!
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up yours.
Dammit, I'm trying to get better at the epic game and people keep coming up with unavoidable distractions!
Honor your Father
What father?
 

rhodie

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Hello Takhsis.

Thank you for your observation.

Vuldacon was referring to the dedication to my Dad at the bottom of the opening image of 'Defeat Into Victory III'.

My father was in India and Burma as part of British Army AASC* (Army Air Support Control) providing aerial supply and offensive support to front-line units. He was part of the ‘Second Arakan Campaign'* to force the Japanese out of northwest Burma in 1944. That is the area where the Rohingya people lived before the Burmese (Myanmar) military forced them out in 2017. My Dad was part of the Forgotten XIV Army* advance to Rangoon until he was hospitalised with malaria. He was one of the remaining British military units to return to the UK in 1946.
* These and many other historical events are in the scenario as ‘Tech’ or ‘Buildings’.
 

AnthonyBoscia

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The British Empire was selected for my first game and we're off. First off, the map and interface look terrific. Great terrain choices and lots of interesting details to take in. Also, the scale of the map is perfect for finding that balance between tactical/operational and overall strategy. The incorporation of many small units that don't fit into epic games such as mortar teams and floatplanes are superb editions. Each of these unit types have their own niche which is part of the fun of figuring out how to use them. The scale also means that you have to watch out for doomstacks, especially when it comes to enemy air.

The first order of business was to organize a fighting withdrawal down the Malay peninsula and keep Singapore defended at all costs. There is a mountain in KGV national park that controls the lines of communication leading south so that became the anchor of the defense. The troops began a process of leapfrogging and consolidating on the move, where units would alternate fortifying and moving while the artillery would shoot and scoot to wear the invaders down. The preponderance of Japanese forces are too much to engage head-on so the idea was to draw their mobile forces forward and separate them from the infantry. Then their guns and motorized units could be whittled down and counter-attacked whenever possible by our limited tank and armored car units. The rearguard echelons suffered grievously but bought time for the defenders to move. The Japanese advance continued inexorably but they paid a heavy price, especially in tanks and aircraft. The use of key fortifications and radar helped the retreating troops inflict heavy casualties before succumbing. Twice we almost took out General Yamash@ta but he slithered away to heal up. By Spring of '42 all of our towns and troops had been captured or wiped out, but the remaining Japanese forces couldn't hope to take Singapore, which at this point had constructed landward-facing fortifications and anti-aircraft.

Meanwhile, Admiral Phillips allowed himself to be convinced that sending Force Zed up the coast without adequate air cover was an exercise in suicidal lunacy. Repulse and Prince of Wales promptly pulled a 180 and steamed back to Singapore at all speed. They and their escorts were pounded by enemy air, but despite heavy damage none were sunk. They continued through the straits of Malacca and heading for the Andamans. Indomitable and Hermes along with their escorts headed east with all speed to link up with the retreating battlewagons. Meanwhile, the limited British and Indian troops available were loaded up and consolidated with the carriers. At the limit of their endurance, the battleships barely survived long range surface action and continued bombing to link up with the carriers. Unfortunately, Mother Nature's 35th Pit Viper Battalion and the veteran cobras of the 5th Venomous Fusiliers overwhelmed the local police and seized the Andamans, destroying the much needed port facilities. An ad hoc landing was launched, with naval bombardment provided by the weary Royal Navy ships. After two weeks of heavy shelling, the enemy snakes were either dead or in POW cages. A massive effort was made to rebuild the shore facilities and repair the damaged ships. The combined task force, now with air cover and additional destroyers and cruisers, steamed back to Malaya. Seeking to keep a close formation against enemy bombers, the ships engaged local IJN vessels with Swordfish strikes and long range gunnery. Japanese airbases at Kuala Lumpur were shelled and the ships continued to move and bombard as they went. Finally, in Spring of 1942, the Indian and British troops were off-loaded in Singapore. The city was saved, and now the long process of rebuilding the roads and outer defenses is underway. Next will be a combined sea and land operation to attrit Japan's air and sea forces and slowly recapture the peninsula.

Meanwhile, the defenders of Hong Kong had a lovely Christmas present for General Sakai and his 23rd Army. Rather than seizing the city, his forces were routed and settled for destroying the infrastructure north of the city in frustrated vengeance. The defenders of Hong Kong has settled in, conserving their ammunition and suffering little damage from the Imperial Japanese Army Air Force's unwelcome visits.

The defense of Burma has been centered around Moulmein. All available forces have slowly gathered here to keep the fighting away from Rangoon as long as possible. The Japanese bombed the road and have made probing attacks, but artillery and air power have so far kept them at bay. No attempt is being made to move forward until the situation develops further. General Iida's main force has been scouting along the border but so far hasn't made a run for the city. Pity, it would nice to draw in and destroy at least one of the armies. The real enemy in Burma as you well know is nature. They have captured numerous cities and overwhelmed the local workers and police at every opportunity. The oil wells outside Mandalay have been overrun. The only success has been recapturing Dacca with the limited artillery and mobile units available. Otherwise it's just time to batten down the hatches and sit tight.

Some thoughts on the scenario: If you can't tell, I'm really enjoying it. Your years of work clearly show through. The scenario doesn't need error corrections but just a couple suggestions. As in many Always-War games, the unhappiness is brutal. I am halfway through 1942 and already at 80% luxuries. Since war weariness can never go away due to the locked alliances, it would be nice if there were some ways to mitigate this. The few happiness buildings are very expensive and not able to counter the tide. I like the choices you've made in limiting growth and expansion and I think this is part of your design, but I worry that by the time I can build late game units my cities with be in a death cycle of unhappiness. I will keep you posted. Also, I noticed that lethal bombardment for aircraft and ships is limited. This is an interesting choice but near as I can tell is not identified in the civilopedia. This would be a tedious task to add in but would help in determining which aircraft can kill ships. I suspect that the only reason the two battleships survived is that there were insufficient Japanese aircraft with the lethal sea bombard flag.

Otherwise it's going great. I will post again when I get further along.

Relief.png
 

Civinator

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Unfortunately, Mother Nature's 35th Pit Viper Battalion and the veteran cobras of the 5th Venomous Fusiliers overwhelmed the local police and seized the Andamans, destroying the much needed port facilities. An ad hoc landing was launched, with naval bombardment provided by the weary Royal Navy ships. After two weeks of heavy shelling, the enemy snakes were either dead or in POW cages.
:D
 

Takhisis

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up yours.
Hello Takhsis.

Thank you for your observation.

Vuldacon was referring to the dedication to my Dad at the bottom of the opening image of 'Defeat Into Victory III'.

My father was in India and Burma as part of British Army AASC* (Army Air Support Control) providing aerial supply and offensive support to front-line units. He was part of the ‘Second Arakan Campaign'* to force the Japanese out of northwest Burma in 1944. That is the area where the Rohingya people lived before the Burmese (Myanmar) military forced them out in 2017. My Dad was part of the Forgotten XIV Army* advance to Rangoon until he was hospitalised with malaria. He was one of the remaining British military units to return to the UK in 1946.
* These and many other historical events are in the scenario as ‘Tech’ or ‘Buildings’.
Oh! Complete misunderstanding on my part. Since we've been here on CFC long enough there are father-son teams among players or modders, so i thought it was a reference to that.

Some of my family took part in WWII and other wars as well. They didn't like to talk about it.
 

rhodie

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Thank you very much Anthony for your excellent review.

I could feel the tension and excitement from your description and I'm pleased that you are enjoying the experience.

Your strategy is terrific and closely echoes the historical campaign. Pity you weren’t in command of Singapore's defences instead of Lieutenant-General Percival. The outcome could have been very different.

I’m surprised at the unsuccessful capture of Hong Kong by the Japanese as there were sufficient units.

War Weariness:
Somehow, during the tests I conducted, I managed to hold the weariness at bay with the few happiness buildings and only 10% happiness. But then most of the time I played as the Dutch on ‘debug' as the others were extremely time consuming with so many units. But, yes possibly add more happiness buildings at the start and reduce the costs of later buildings?

Limited growth and expansion was part of the design as it replicated what actually happened.

Lethal bombardment
If memory serves me right, the only units that have lethal bombardment are the V1, V2 and Yokosuka MXY-7 Ohka. That is something that could be added to battleships and aircraft, especially heavy bombers like the Mitsubishi G3M that destroyed Force Z.

Your review is very much appreciated and I look forward to the next episode.
 

rhodie

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Thank you Vuldacon. I will be adding that detail to the Civilopedia in due course.

However, I have reservations about adding 'lethal' to aircraft. During the attack on the Prince of Wales, the ratio of bomb/torpedoes dropped to hits was 1-17 but 1 hit can eventually cause a ship to become indefensible. That one hit caused flooding and a 11-degree list that put half its anti-aircraft guns out of action.

It took 17 Mitsubishi G3M Nell bombers and 26 Mitsubishi G4M Betty medium bombers to sink the two capital ships of Force Z. Out of eight 250kg bombs and nine 500kg bombs dropped only one bomb actually hit and out of 49 torpedoes, only 8 hit. Three bombers were lost due to anti-aircraft fire and many more damaged.

I notice that no ship is ever destroyed by bombing in Civ III. The game doesn’t allow that to happen. I wouldn’t want to give a single bomber the ability to destroy a ship but if attacked by several bombers, possibly they could.

Can this ratio be replicated in the game? Has anyone checked the effect of adding the 'lethal’ flag to an aircraft?
 

AnthonyBoscia

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Hi, Rhodie. I have some thoughts on happiness and bombardment, but at this time I'd like to play further into the scenario before making suggestions. First impressions can be offset once one learns more about the workings of the game. When I try a scenario, I like to play it as a player first and use the civilopedia as a reference. I don't like to "get under the hood" with the biq file too early because once that happens, my brain goes into modder mode and the mystery of discovery and learning diminishes. So, once I've played a while I will post some thoughts on those subjects for your consideration.

As for the lethal sea bombardment, I understand your reservations as this is a powerful ability for aircraft. There are many ways to approach this. One possibility would be to limit lethal sea bombard to only medium bombers, or perhaps torpedo bombers. From what I've seen in the game, most if not all bombers only have 1 rate of fire. A Nell with a bombard strength of 6 and a rate of fire of 1 has a 59% chance to score one point of damage against HMS Repulse which has a defense of 8 and 6 hit points. It would take maybe ten aircraft (representing 100 aircraft in the game) to sink her on a single turn. That's not including the escorts which also need to be hit as the battlecruiser loses hit points. As it stands now, once the bombers have weakened the ships, they must then be finished off by surface ships or submarines. There are advantages and disadvantages of adding lethal sea bombardment, but again I would like to play the game some more (especially as the Japanese) before weighing in on the issue.
 

rhodie

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Thank you Anthony.
I like your thinking. Best to play the game and make notes as you go along.
We can talk about this once you have had a chance to play the game a lot more.
I appreciate your input.
 
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