Deity Isolation Workshop (Stan/Norm/Fractal/NH/NE)

[Fippy]

Aww, no problem thou.
I already thought this setup on turn 91 is too good to be real
Def not possible with early barb archers, barbs are vicious here.

 

[Pedro78]

I'll look at your save later when I'll have played this far (haven't started yet), definitely interested to compare how differently we'll play this one


Oh and I've experimented with settling more cities before Optics. Conclusion is that the "extra" cities need to bring a big amount of commerce in order to pay off before Optics, otherwise they slow you down too much. Looks like there should be only 2 settling waves: before Writing and right after Optics. Getting the new cities ready to produce an army takes a big production burst around Astro time, though. I can't really do that properly yet, have to practice.

Oh and I'm beggining to like Agg more and more when playing iso. It makes dealing with the barbs so easy on most maps -- can fight against Archers while barely losing any warriors (need to secure the island before Axes/Spears begin spawning, though).

 

[Lain]

I often add cities #5 and #6 with/close to Monarchy, what about that? It's an important milestone to reach early enough (so we don't want to oversettle before, wasn't this a problem in one of your Tokugawa games?), but a new city can still pay off before Optics.

But I agree that the next wave comes "after" Optics. Which brings us back to the original problem: low army contribution and problems to field a big stack in time.

 

[Pedro78]

I need to play a few more games to get a feel for all this. But yeah, there are some cases where a new city should be settled upon reaching Monarchy (like in one of my toku games indeed). But it has to be a city that has a great mid-term commerce potential, otherwise it will just ruin your Optics date.

On one hand, the cities I settle after reaching Optics usually don't start producing units until 1000 AD, and on the other hand I just can't settle them before Optics. Maybe a later, stronger attack is the solution? If you're going for Cannons+Rifles, the newly settled cities usually have enough time to pay off.

It also shouldn't hurt too badly to get out a few settlers before Optics and settle the cities on the Optics turn. This would also require very good worker planning, but nothing impossible.

The thing I'm becoming really sceptical about, though, is Alpha. Building research and no infra puts you in such a production hole later on when what you need the most is hammers...

Anyways, like I said, gotta play a few more games

 

[Lain]

So I am practising and trying to use some of your feedback. If you want to take a look at some saves . Main improvement I've noticed is that I chop more... sounds simple, but when I try to figure out how to use worker turns, I just give "new cottages" a lower priority. And that kind of snowballs to the rest of the game... my Writing timing thingy still sucks, though.

Not spoilering anything in case you want to try the map yourself

PS: I totally share the enthusiasm for AGG leaders.

 

[Izuul]

So Philo should be able to generate at least 4 great people by Astro and 1 or 2 more before a cannon attack. 1 could be used for an academy if the capitol is decent at all, and obviously you want 2 for Astro. Options for the other? Double bulb Chem later? Bulb Optics (could tech Math relatively early and benefit from Math chops)? Save for golden ages around build up time later?

 

[Pedro78]

I'll try to play this to Optics today. Starting position looks great.

I still wouldn't bulb Optics with a philo leader in most cases. Makes building an academy easier, and later on there's many uses for extra GS -- bulb Chemistry, GP, PP, launch a GA & get GMs...

 

[Rusten]

I don't think I have any saves from that far back @Pedro78

I can check my external disc later, but I doubt I have any there either.

 

[Izuul]

Yeah, it's hard to justify the modest beaker savings gained by bulbing Optics. The difference between Math and Optics is only 500ish beakers... that's more like 400 after the research bonus is applied. In most games that's maybe 3T worth of research. If Math were stronger and more useful in ISO it might be worth it, but i haven't even been able to get Math in time to chop into Mids failgold the few times I've played around with that.

 

[Pedro78]

One screenshot and a bunch of saves

Spoiler :

Now I'll look at your saves and comment.

@Izuul imo even Alpha is weak in many iso games, so in most cases the Optics bulb is just a wasted GS

Edit - not sure which one of PHI or FIN is the most overpowered trait in iso, but they definitely do both make most maps pretty easy

 

[dutchfire]

I need to play a few more games to get a feel for all this. But yeah, there are some cases where a new city should be settled upon reaching Monarchy (like in one of my toku games indeed). But it has to be a city that has a great mid-term commerce potential, otherwise it will just ruin your Optics date.

On one hand, the cities I settle after reaching Optics usually don't start producing units until 1000 AD, and on the other hand I just can't settle them before Optics. Maybe a later, stronger attack is the solution? If you're going for Cannons+Rifles, the newly settled cities usually have enough time to pay off.

It also shouldn't hurt too badly to get out a few settlers before Optics and settle the cities on the Optics turn. This would also require very good worker planning, but nothing impossible.

The thing I'm becoming really sceptical about, though, is Alpha. Building research and no infra puts you in such a production hole later on when what you need the most is hammers...

Anyways, like I said, gotta play a few more games

I suppose this argues for drafting instead of whipping. Only need a granary.

 

[Pedro78]

I suppose this argues for drafting instead of whipping. Only need a granary.

IMO drafting can only be a total substitute to whipping when you have an already strong & developed empire. Caste workshops and drafting can be an option, but for that you need an island with several strong size 10+ cities in order to pump out enough units, and this is very rare in iso (downright impossible with most maps posted on this thread). Drafting is very good when you already have a strong army and only need to add in some Rifles. The thing is that you can't just found a city, build a granary, work max food and draft it everytime it reaches size 6 -- unhappiness will be unbearable. So in all cases you have to whip.

 

[Rusten]

Alex game

Spoiler :

I'm confused. Did you guys ban the Pyramids and I didn't get the memo or something? Seems weird not to construct it.

 

[Pedro78]

There's no official ban on the Mids, but I usually avoid them when playing for practice as in many cases they "carry the game and there's not much learning to be had"

(Although optimizing a "mids economy" isn't necessarily obvious, once you get it right it does actually make most games really easy)

Oh and on this map the Mids would of course be insanely overpowered

 

[Lain]

What is the best way of optimizing a mids economy? Grow happy cap, hire scientists. Anything less obvious?

What annoys me the most about isolation at the moment is the fact that after Steel I hopelessly fall behind in tech, whipping and fighting for a chance to take at least one AI out. Can never manage to get back into the trading game after that and end up self-teching everything. Best case later is fighting with Artillery vs Tanks and stuff... just so unconvincing. Usually UN win as the only way out (enough land, just too far behind). Not very fun. Have to play better.

 

[Pedro78]

A lot to say about your game, Lain.

Spoiler :

T25

- Why not SIP? Riverside ivory is a very good tile, especially when you start with hunting and need early warrior production. Only thing that would’ve made me settle 1N is if my scout had revealed some seafood that would’ve been ruined had I SIP’d. Not to mention that settling 1N gives you less land visibility (the hills 2S allow for good fogbusting from T5), and loses one riverside hill.

- Workboat first was very bad here – you have grass Pigs and river-jumbos in BFC. This means you have good commerce and AH is not too costly. Settling 1N didn’t help you with the timing either. Getting AH as late as you did was a big mistake.

T50

- In your T50 save Athens is working an unimproved riverside grass tile, even though you have 2F1H tiles available and are far behind in production (at that date I didn’t even have Pottery, but I had three cities and the fourth one was settled on T54. In your game you get very early Writing but it doesn’t do you any good as you can’t start on libraries for a very long time.

- Sparta is settled in a weird spot – I’d much rather have these first ring forests than being able to borrow Athen’s (only) ivory – especially as the latter has so few good tiles

- Building a worker in Sparta is pretty bad – very slow, you don’t need a second worker yet, the city needs to grow otherwise it won’t get granary/library for a very long time and Athens has plenty of production (would be better with earlier AH)

- Why are you building a wb in Athens? I guess it’s for your third city, which is in a very bad spot imo – you don’t need double food and it has no good tiles apart from the food res. And even if you settle there, it’s better to 1whip a wb in the new city after improving the pigs than to waste time and hammers building one in Athens (might have been different without a happy res)

T75

- Settling your 4th city where you put it is good if you’re going for Alpha, but it doesn’t make it worth it to go for Alpha on this map imo. You have plenty of riverside and are PHI, which is an incentive to run cottages and scientists. Plus you’ve got a great cottage capital in which you’re going to build an Academy – but it won’t produce big beakers later on if you don’t actually grow cottages there.

- This is partly a consequence of funky city placement, but you’re working horrible tiles. Yes it’s ok to work forests / unimproved river grass for a few turns (even an unimproved non-riverside tile can be worked for a turn or 2 if somehow the timing doesn’t fit), but you can’t be working unimproved plains tiles for 10+ turns!

- You’re settling a 5th city, which is questionable – the only spot that I can see for a fifth city is the small island to the West as it gives you 2c TRs in every city. And you’re settling it in a weird spot aswell: it’s 1 distance unit further away from Athens than 1N (more maintenance, distance is always “floored” down), cannot share Athen’s clam and makes it impossible to later share the crab with another city

T101

- Considering your previous city placements and tech pace, your tile choices look reasonable (except for that god-ugly plains non-river cottage 1N of Argos).

- What about GPP??? You’re only running scientists in two cities! On this map, you can easily get 5-6 GS by T150, but you’re set to get only 2 GS for Astro and nothing more.

- I totally disagree with settling a GS when you have this much commerce, doesn’t matter if you’re playing a PHI leader. Optics date is certainly not a bottleneck in this game. 1.6k beakers into Chemistry or a golden age while teching Rifling would be so much more useful!

- Looks like you’re playing as if it was the Sally map. But here you have great commerce so you can afford to divert more resources towards production. As it stands you’re going to get Optics very early – you should be getting ready to settle 2-3 more cities as soon as Optics is in (still have a bit of time for that but not much). Starving all your cities to 0 food in order to squeeze out every last beaker can be good in a game like Saladin where Optics date is a bottleneck, but here not working the food will most likely hurt you.

Hope this helps

 

[Pedro78]

The only difference between Rep-economy and HR-economy is that with Mids you have a much stronger incentive to run scientists. It will often make it worthwhile to tech CoL, run more specialists and get more GP. Thus it also affects how you place your cities early on. Once you've figured out the GPP part, it's easier to think of it as a bonus that gives you 0F6C tiles available in any city with a library (or simply in every city when running CS).

You also have to keep in mind that you have Police State available and that it's very powerful, so you have to time your civic switches right with your military buildup. That's why the combination Mids+SPI leader is so powerful.

And yup, the trickiest part in iso is the first war -- it's usually tricky to both "win the war" and remain in the tech game.

 

[Lain]

In many iso games, Steel for Rifling/SciMe is the last tech trade I ever make . After that either I win the war and slog to a victory with production/land advantage or... crash and burn. Just have to improve as a player and using your feedback will be a big part of it. For example, I think you had 4 cities and no roads. Kind of an eye opener. When my cities aren't connected it triggers something, have to get over that .

Not sure about drafting though... I kind it could be more viable than we think so far. If you have to tech all the way to Rifling, there might even be enough time to build the GT in some appropriate city. More importantly, where are the Rifles going to come from otherwise? We already upgrade Trebs and upgrading Muskets etc is inefficient. Whipping "fresh" Rifles takes forever. Drafting means we can immediately get 3 Rifles for the first wave. Means we can go a bit easier on the whipping before... focus on Trebs, some cannon fodder and infrastructure.

Definitely trying the draft thingy next time. Seems like a good way to fix the troubles we spoke about (overwhipping, big enough army)

I lost the Alex game by the way. For the reason check the religious situation in my save. Story of my life.

Spoiler :

5 civs in Buddhism. 125 AD Optics for everyone. Defensive Pacts later. 1200 AD Artillery. GG.

 

[Pedro78]

Hmm without CRE I'd very rarely build the GT in iso (before the first war). It's a very big hammer investment (600h) that could be spent on units. The places where I draft the most are the cities with low food that can't really whip and therefore aren't really hurt by whip anger.

The really good thing with Nationhood is that the +2 happy from barracks allow you to draft (almost) every city twice before war -- it's a quick and cheap 10-15 Rifles in 4-5T.

Going for Rifling does indeed make the whole timing a lot easier: can whip all the ships and a few maces/muskets before Steel, then all the Cannons before Rifling and then add in Rifles. It also makes it less important to have 5XP units -- in some cases you just want to attack earlier.

However, you can't know what you'll attack with before Optics. In some games you can't even trade for PP after Steel -- makes teching Rifling extremely painful. In this case it's much better to attack with cannons a lot earlier. Therefore in every game you have that production problem.

For example in that Alex game, if I get a Guilds trade I'll have Cannons around T150-155 -- no way I'll get a RP trade this early, so I'll have to stress out production as much as possible in the newly settled cities (most likely no forges) in order to land with cannons ASAP.

For the next practice map could we get something without PHI and with less rivers? (Agg is fine, though -- I hate having to go for Archery). We haven't played Stalin yet, right?

Edit - I won't play out the Alex map, have played a few more turns and it's the easiest one this thread has seen ever since the Hannibal game. If the next game is a tough one I'll definitely play it entirely though (I don't feel mentally ready for the Kublai map lol)

Re-edit - about the map

Spoiler :

Are we talking about the same map? In mine no one had compass when I met them. The ottomans didn't have MC lol. Three civs at war. Plus isolated Pacal up for grabbing if things go out of control (which they probably won't).

Re-re-edit

Spoiler :

I just checked WB in your save, lots of happy faces lol

But couldn't you take out Pacal? Really looks like a weak target and has good land.. There's also a few islands to settle, after that you can win diplo somehow? Or domination if you're quick enough, but looks tough.

 

[Pedro78]

Gonna play a new practice map. If anyone wants to play along..