Deity WvO

[Bjarkov]

The things that jump to my eye seeing your 1000BC status is the number of forests in the cap BFC while no library is up yet, and the number of workers to service your 5 cities. Should've had that library out ages ago and 5 workers out by now

 

[Pangaea]

Looks like the game is going well so far. 7 workers sounds like a lot with how I've been playing recently, but with good land, many forests and even some jungle, you can probably use them. Great with both iron and horses, and you have 6 mostly good cities, so this is nicely set up for Cuirs breakout, hopefully winning Lib along the way -- provided you can stay out of Monty's hitlist. Hopefully he doesn't attack you. Be aware though, he can plot at pleased. Agreeing with his demand was wise. Marble means good chance for failgold to help your economy, and getting up HE and NE is a lot more comfortable, plus MoM if you choose to go for it.

 

[BornInCantaloup]

Unfortunately, it seems that researching Mathematics has lost you any advantage that the Alphabet beeline could have brought.
This is because AIs research Maths so much. The tech has very little trading value. (And maybe you were too prone to gift techs for diplo bonuses ?)
I think that researching straight into Currency, or Aesthetics (trade bait) or Code of Laws (with Priesthood, opening an Oracle slingshot, maybe ?) would all have had better chances to maintain your tech lead.

Alpha beeline gains you beakers but loses you hammers. Better have those beakers count.

e.g. : you should know that you were lucky to settle 2 late cities near the SE jungle, especially getting the corn/copper site. The area is hotly contested by Churchill and Montezuma. I lost that corn before even 2000 BC.



@ Diplo : I'd aim to switch into Judaism without doubting too much.
Monty is the most appealing ally and he even has a Jewish buddy... the other warmonger...

@ 7 workers : you probably shouldn't go straight into that, without settling your remaining cities.
The Hague seems well-suited to produce your next settler (chop worker, then whip settler ?).
Getting more and better tiles to work asap is the stake. Some infrastructure, too, when growing doesn't bring much.
Having stronger cities does give some manoeuvrability, when it comes to choosing between war and peace. It may be best to keep your options open and see what's coming.
(To me, jumping into a war led by Montezuma seems like a nice and cozy way to capture a few cities and maybe, even, to take out a rival.)

 

[Seraiel]

@ BiC: We seem to have different experiences. In my games, I often have to wait very long for Math, that's why I advise it for self-teching. In SGOTM 18, Mansa teched everything except Maths, he had Theology before he decided to finally give us Maths and our game was hurt quite much because we delayed all chopping waiting for it.

 

[BornInCantaloup]

@ Seraiel :
Yes, if you aim for a tech that is unlocked by Mathematics, asap, then you'd better research it yourself. Music, Civil Service, Construction or Calendar apply.
However, if you "simply" aim to get a research advantage compared to your rivals, then favouring better trade baits or techs that are worth beelining is superior.
Mathematics, you can trade for when a sufficient number of AIs know the tech.
Here, I get the feeling that Mathematics was researched to get a 20% discount on Currency and that, imho, isn't worth the investment.

I researched AH, BW, Pottery and Sailing before going Writing and, at 1000 BC, I'm "ahead" in techs, compared with Solyaris. This should indicate something has gone wrong in his game.
"Ahead" is in "..." because I'm just virtually ahead, having enough gold banked in the treasury to research Currency... and I don't have Mathematics, which I'll trade for.


@ Diplo :
Thinking about it, maybe a 5 cities Montezuma isn't the best ally ever and another religious block is better. The Buddhist block, as Seraiel suggested, does make a lot of sense.

 

[Seraiel]

@ Seraiel :
Yes, if you aim for a tech that is unlocked by Mathematics, asap, then you'd better research it yourself. Music, Civil Service, Construction or Calendar apply.
However, if you "simply" aim to get a research advantage compared to your rivals, then favouring better trade baits or techs that are worth beelining is superior.
Mathematics, you can trade for when a sufficient number of AIs know the tech.
Here, I get the feeling that Mathematics was researched to get a 20% discount on Currency and that, imho, isn't worth the investment.

I researched AH, BW, Pottery and Sailing before going Writing and, at 1000 BC, I'm "ahead" in techs, compared with Solyaris. This should indicate something has gone wrong in his game.
"Ahead" is in "..." because I'm just virtually ahead, having enough gold banked in the treasury to research Currency... and I don't have Mathematics, which I'll trade for.

But Solyaris is also ahead in tech! All the AIs got are some small religious techs he doesn't need at the moment. Also: Solyaris gifted Alpha and Maths to almost all Civs and therefor got very good diplo, do you have +4 with everybody in your game too?

I told him to research Maths not for the 20% discount, though that is actually nice. I told him so, so he can get out the last Settler and build the necessary infrastructure in his cities without needing to whip so much. His research is very dependant on the number of population, ok, he got 2 Golds, but the rest needs to come from Cottages and FIN-Coast. The larger his cities, the better he can go for a Cuirrassier rush, so I found Maths logical as it saves population.

 

[BornInCantaloup]

@ Gifting free techs for diplo :
Of course I don't have +4 relations with AIs... All I meant is that Solyaris had lost his tech lead in the process and that I would reach Currency before he would, despite a slower start from my part.
So, sure, his diplo is very safe. If you think this is worth it, then fair enough. It sure is much better than paying 0 attention to diplo relationships. But I tend to think it's overkill (= counterproductive) to forego the tech lead in this manner. And, imho, it isn't worth it.
As I see it, such liberal gifting defeats the purpose of an Alphabet beeline, which is to propel oneself, precisely, in the tech lead.


EDIT :
@Solyaris :
Note that you still haven't met the Stonehenge AI. Maybe wait for the meeting before choosing on a religion.

 

[Seraiel]

@ BiC: I don't think that gifting techs for +4 of fair trade is overkill. Getting friends is enormously important for the course of a game. With friends, trading for monopolies is possible, allowing onesself to almost shut down research completely, because one can trade the same monopoly techs to other AIs to get their techs on top.

+1 through lasting peace, +2 through open borders, +4 through fair-trade = +7. Now for friendly one either needs +1 (or +2) bonus from having traded resources to them, or one needs shared war, so the +4 are really needed to get someone to friendly.

With commerce as high as in this game, getting a tech-lead again after having buttered the AIs for friendlyness isn't too difficult. This is one of the games, where the player can have 300+ at 1 AD. That's more than enough to run away from the AIs.

Also: Good diplomatic relations lower the risk of getting a DoW extremely. If AIs like Monty were cautious to me, I wouldn't feel well with an all Warrior MP.

I still understand your argument for Currency though, and I agree, that it maybe is the better choice, as Currency comes with lots of money from begs and selling techs aswell as resources, so while Math increases only the productivity of an empire, Currency allows to get generally more techs, i. e. also Math which one can get in only a few turns, if one has the money for to fuel the deficit of 100% research.

 

[Seraiel]

Have you abandoned this game Solyares or are you waiting for more advice?

 

[Solyaris]

I did play untill liberaism before I had to go abroad for 5 days. Will come with an update later tonight or tomorrow. My main issue now is how big army I need and whom to attack (several possibilities)

 

[BornInCantaloup]

What I did, to 200 BC :

Spoiler :

Initial tech path :
AH, Mining, Bronze, Wheel, Pottery, Sailing, Writing (1800 BC).

Initial build orders :
Worker, Settler (size 3), Settler, Settler (still size 3).

The 3x settler sequence at size 3 aimed to grab land far in the south east jungle. Being Creative, I think, favours such agressive settling.


Few pics with comments on sticky notes :

Spoiler :

 

[Seraiel]

What I did, to 200 BC :

Spoiler :

Initial tech path :
AH, Mining, Bronze, Wheel, Pottery, Sailing, Writing (1800 BC).

Initial build orders :
Worker, Settler (size 3), Settler, Settler (still size 3).

The 3x settler sequence at size 3 aimed to grab land far in the south east jungle. Being Creative, I think, favours such agressive settling.


Few pics with comments on sticky notes :

Spoiler :

Very interesting choices on settling. I like the Copper Horses city, I don't like the city in the SW though, because ithas no food and mostly plains. Maybe it'll still be worth it though, once you get those Gems.

I'd gift Drama to all Civs for +4, it's a mostly useless tech for AI, but has great trading value.

 

[BornInCantaloup]

@ Seraiel :

Spoiler :

I find the map very food poor. The 2 fish tiles on the northern coast are the best, the only 5F tiles available early and they don't help with land grabbing. No corn, no pigs.
Under those conditions, I think it makes sense to settle poor cities, if only for their denial value.
Missing on the South East Corn city was a big disappointment (easily a better city than Amsterdam). That's what happens when Churchill decides he wants 5 cities before 2000 BC.

The Copper/Silk city did its job, I think :
It completed the borders AND it had a strong tile + 5 forests to begin with.
It could quickly contribute a worker, then had its minimal infrastructure set up.

Spoiler :

1 Worker and 3 Swordsmen out of the city at 200 BC. I never got control over the gems, however.
It was Gems vs 4 food surplus. 4 food surplus is already very little, I couldn't afford to settle further south or off the coast.



I've already played on (to 660 AD), so I won't gift Drama to all AIs for diplo.
I slowly sold the tech where the money was, and made bundles of lesser techs to get a hold on larger ones (e.g. Drama + CoL + XXX vs Feudalism or this sort of trade).
To be honest, I doubt I need ALL AIs to be Pleased with me. I think securing a couple is enough, and a Friendly one for trades.
Especially the relatively peaceful AIs, such as Lincoln or Saladdin... I don't think I miss much by having wasted relations with them.

 

[Seraiel]

@ BiC: losing the Corn spot so early is really something. Out of Interest: Why didn't you simply choose the 3 best spots and went for a HA-rush?

You settling the no-food city in the SW I understand now, as 5 Forests are a good reason to settle a city.

Lincoln btw. can be a formidable Trade-partner. One must be careful with giving him something, because he likes to tech Liberalism early.

 

[JSS]

Spoiler :

I took a shot at HA rushing this map.

My tech path was AH -> Mining -> Writing -> Alpha -> Trades for BW, Pottery, Sailing, Mysticism, Hunting, Archery -> HBR.

I built a Library after settling my 2nd city at the Cow/Gold spot, with plans to bulb Maths. However, I saw Sury teching Maths, so I switched into his religion, traded for Monotheism from someone, gifted it to Sury along with some techs and waited for him to become Friendly with me so I can trade for Maths in time.

However, it's 700BC and he's still refusing to trade it to me. I have +10 diplo with him and he's only at pleased. What's the threshold for him to become friendly? I didn't find that information in the Civ Illustrated thread.

Edit: There should not be a hidden negative modifier against me based on this (from http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=11931818&postcount=49): "Base Attitude towards Human Player (+0)".
Also: "12) Base Attitude is how an AI starts off viewing everyone else. This is important to the player because it determines how fast you can get to pleased and friendly. Normally Furious is -10 or below, Annoyed is -9 to -3, Cautious is -2 to +2, Pleased is +3 to +9, and Friendly is +10 relations and greater.
".

I have a lot of forests pre-chopped and infrastructure somewhat up in all but my last city, which will catch up once I start chopping.

4 AIs have Mathematics, only Lincoln is willing to trade. The problem is I have cancelled relations with him.

 

[BornInCantaloup]

Out of Interest: Why didn't you simply choose the 3 best spots and went for a HA-rush?

I don't feel very confident with this type of strategy. I also have very little experience with straight HA rushes, executed off 4 or less cities. Those I consider and forget about quickly.

Spoiler :

If used as the main force, I find the HA is a very expensive and fragile unit for what it does. The tech cost is also considerable.
I like HAs best as scouts, to give a little range and/or vision to a stack, or as a harassment unit, going around the ennemy lines. That, of course, isn't with 4- cities but, rather, with 6+.

In a general manner, I dislike minimizing the number of cities to gain turns on a tech. I tend to feel a lot safer with a few extra cities and a later tech.
This explains why I never got the famed 1500 BC HA rush, nor the 2000 BC Axe rush. Because I get the extra settler, worker, oh and a granary, a library, and another settler if I can.

I think it's very hard to compete with the returns on a settler, although I know some disagree on that point.


So...
Going head-on into a HA rush because there are horses and no excellent city spots,
I find very risky,
No excellent city spots only make the war harder,
Production is hard to come by,
This is all the more riskier since
There is a good amount of land to settle (the peaceful alternative is viable).
Going blindly into a HA war can get very messy,
e.g. vs a metal unit spammer (if you saw the number of units Lincoln had...),
HAs mostly get Combat promotions : even highly promoted HAs die,
They keep dying,
They need constant reinforcements,
Cities can't grow,
Economy comes at a halt,
Strike becomes a danger,
13 cities Suryvayarman runs away with the game.

This may be an alarmist scenario but it certainly is one that may happen.
The first war is always of the "do or die" sort.
I'd be a lot more prone to Axe rush, Swords rush, Swords bust going pure Swords or Cata-Swords war than I'd be to HA rush. Swords routinely get my vote for the top military unit in the game.
Swords get promoted, swords don't die.
They don't need constant reinforcements,
Cities can grow,
Empire can research,
Suryvayarman doesn't run away with the game.

If I have a production overload, then sure, I'll go mounted.
But if I need to be extra careful, then I sure prefer ground, City Raider units (I'll Axe rush when possible...). Those are sturdy units and the tech requirements are a lot lighter. And if I need a little unit composition (an axeman, a spearman, a couple archers), then fine : warring will be that much safer !
And when I axe rush, I'll certainly try to maximize my number of cities before doing so. Because newly founded cities are an almost unparalleled source of commerce and production.


Some find that, by sacrificing early expansion, one can research the tech faster and open a window for a successful HA war, with few casualties.
I have very little experience with this type of play but I find it very risky and I wouldn't favour it, given the choice.
War takes a larger toll with fewer cities, as one can't afford to spare commerce and population. Then again, settling only a couple cities makes some things possible, that aren't when settling six.


This post is a little redundant, now. I hope it makes my opinion clear.
Note that I don't claim one shouldn't consider Alpha beelines or HA wars off 2 cities. Simply that those types of play hardly get my preference.

@ JSS :
Good luck ^^ I'll be happy to be proven wrong.

 

[JSS]

@BiC:

Spoiler :

As you said, the HA rush is very sketchy if one doesn't know what he's doing. I think my date of getting HAs out is getting very late, and the rush depends on surprising the AI when there's not too many (metal) units in the field. I'd need to get a few lucky breaks to get the snow ball rolling here.

I'll probably retry later to see if I can do better. My baseless assumption of being able to trade for Maths from Sury proved to be a deciding mistake.

 

[Seraiel]

@ BiC + JSS:

Spoiler :

HA-rush is the master-discipline in CIV, there is nothing that's as difficult, except i. e. libbing Biology or also i. e. Steel.

The main difficulty that comes with a HA rush, is, that it must be done bery very early. 3 cities is not because if higher research, it's because if one gets HBR at 2000 BC and rushes at 1500 BC, there is no possibility to settle more cities without getting less HAs.

From my experience, there are two goid ways to pull it of: 1. Go Alpha followed by HBR and see, that you can bribe someone against someone else, and then backstab a few turns later. If only facing like 2-3 units / city, HAs are amazingly fast and in contrast to BiC's experience, they're not as fragile as one thinks, 20% withdrawl chance make them actually at least as good as a Sword, unless the Sword is CR3.

The 2nd option I know is to beeline HBR before Alpha and after having it, reaearch Maths to trade Maths + HBR against Alpha and BW. This option is a little faster than the Alpha beeline, but it's very possible that one will get Alpha later with it.

Both options need a very good focus and they're both all in's, with no 100% chance of success. What makes them so attractive though, is, that there is no way I know of, that gets one many cities earlier.

The main problem of a HA rush are Hills-cities, ad one can lose up to 3 Has / defender against those, if a Spear is defending, also 4 and 5 losses are possible. It's therfore often needed to skip hills cities first, and lure out the defenders by leaving a neighbour's city undefended. Also, as already said, HA-rushes need often reinforcements.

What I found very inspiring, was to read the current SGOTM of team TSR. They went for a HA-rush, they invested everything, as it's necessary, and still, they ciuldn't choose their target freely but had to fo for the weakest one. Anyhow, they gained very many cities in only very little time, which impressed me.

Imo., if BiC can Sword-rush, he can also HA-rush. Maybe you want to try this bext time.

 

[Pangaea]

I know it's not Deity, but I've had good success with HA-rushing in an Immortal Space race Challenge game. It's so successful, actually, that I get into pretty hefty financial woes due to so many cities early on. Obviously, a key ingredient is denying the AI access to metal, or taking it out ASAP when you invade. Spears and hills cities is the bane of HAs, but without many hill cities, it's a good way to get many cities early. Mounted warfare is also so quick, that the AIs can't really handle it. Due to speed, they also last better than Axes and Swords typically do.

 

[Seraiel]

Once I got my PC back from SNASA, I'll play a Large or Huge Marathon Inca game, and I'll rush with chekers first, getting me 10 cities, and directly afterwards, I'll contine with Horse Archers or Swords and then Swords and Cats.
I wonder how many cities I will get compared to Replay #5, and yes, I'll tr to break the 4.8 mio Highscore from WastinTime.