Once I got my PC back from SNASA, I'll play a Large or Huge Marathon Inca game, and I'll rush with chekers first, getting me 10 cities, and directly afterwards, I'll contine with Horse Archers or Swords and then Swords and Cats.
I wonder how many cities I will get compared to Replay #5, and yes, I'll tr to break the 4.8 mio Highscore from WastinTime.
That will take quite an effort, so good luck with it. I see that game has been beat for score too btw, though it's on Immortal Large, with Darius. Tripped the 5 million line. Hopefully there will be another good writeup if you succeed
That will take quite an effort, so good luck with it. I see that game has been beat for score too btw, though it's on Immortal Large, with Darius. Tripped the 5 million line. Hopefully there will be another good writeup if you succeed
I also thought about choosing Darius instead, but my opinion is, that the game must be on Deity. IMM games are way easier than Deity ones, also making IMM games way less Interesting.
A new non-Incan game that beats the 5 Mio of Wastintime would ofc. be even more spectacular, but I'm not sure if Darius could do this on Deity. I'll give him a try though.
Need to look at that IMM game once my PC is back, I'm sure it will be inspiring.
Let's hope this thread gets an update today too, need something to read.
The main difficulty that comes with a HA rush, is, that it must be done bery very early. 3 cities is not because if higher research, it's because if one gets HBR at 2000 BC and rushes at 1500 BC, there is no possibility to settle more cities without getting less HAs.
HA-rush is the master-discipline in CIV, there is nothing that's as difficult, except i. e. libbing Biology or also i. e. Steel.
[...]
Imo., if BiC can Sword-rush, he can also HA-rush.
That's nice to read, thanks for the vote of confidence
It seems to me, however, that early action and the Liberalism longshot are two entirely different things.
Bonus, 740-760 AD :
Spoiler:
After maximizing research for a few turns, growth resumes :
Because we can start producing again :
Steel is the tech because Sury/Lincoln have way too many units to tackle with mounted.
Wait, waiiit ! There's more, there's more ! Don't leave before the end !
Lost 3 swordsmen (out of 12) and 13 catapults (out of 20) to get there. Also an axeman, a maceman and 3 longbows (used as stack defenders).
Sury will be tough to beat, I hope he DoWs someone after Montezuma is finished, so he can waste his units.
Lincoln and Saladdin, otoh, are protected by the Apostolic Palace. Hopefully, I can manoeuver around it to invade them one after the other... and without suffering a bribe.
Possibly, Churchill is the best next target (rather than Saladdin), for he is relatively weak and isolated. Still undecided on that part.
Good job on libbing Steel, I know that that is very difficult and even asked Doshin lately how to achieve that. His answer was via starting a GA to create 4-6 GSs and then bulb as many techs on the way as possible, did you do the same or how did you do it?
Regarding targets, I would take out Lincoln first because he's nor PRO, and after him I'd continue with Churchill to gain enough power to go against that beasty Sury who seems to have gotten way too much space on that map. With Cannons however you're basically free in the choice id targets as Cannons beat everything, even Infantries if needed.
With all those FIN coast and lake tiles you're working, I wonder why you didn't build the Moai statues, for example in Maastricht or Utrecht.
Are they only worth their cost with access to stone?
I played a ways into this kind of quickly the other day and the game was going decently well until something rather unfortunate happened. I know some stuff about the inner workings of the game code, but I'm not intimately familiar with it like a few people around here are, and i think that cost me.
Spoiler:
I didn't go for an early HA rush, instead founded 6 cities and then built some HAs later with the intention of piggy backing Monty's stack and letting him do a lot of the dirty work while i took the spoils. My original plan was to DoW Lincoln then bribe Monty in, but he actually declared on Lincoln on his own. Lincoln lost 4 of his 11 cities with me capturing 3 of them including Washington where Monty attacked with his big stack and left just 7 red-lined units for me to mop up. My plan was to do this maybe 1 more time and then try to end the war b/t Monty and Lincoln, but Lincoln peace vassaled capitulated to Monty the turn after i captured Washington. Blah... I know Lincoln is a wimp, but i was really surprised to see him cap with 7 cities to Monty that had 11 cities given that the losses in the war exchanged b/t the two seemed relatively even.
China also peace vassaled to Sury on the same turn.
Anyway, this is where i left off:
Spoiler:
I need to get another GP to start a golden age. I kind of neglected that after getting a scientist to bulb Edu which is where playing fast and not paying enough attention to detail hurts. I think i could just go CS + Pac to get one quick and then start 12T golden age, but i will have to eat 1T of anarchy. At this point the target would probably have to be Saladin because i need to be bigger before i go after Monty + Lincoln.
BTW that corn city site was gone before 2000 BC. I think it was Monty's 4th city. I would've needed to settle it 2nd to have a shot at it, and i didn't. I went for cows + gold instead because i thought Saladin might try to settle that if i waited.
Looks like a very nice game, 9 cities in the BCs, well done I wonder if one could make lincoln revolt against mobty by giving him back a big city. If its close, 1 city should be enough so that he passes the 50 land and population requirement. Then you could conquer the rest of Lincoln alone .
Don't be fooled. In some games there's a world war and research is much slower than in others.
It makes things possible that wouldn't be otherwise.
The Moai Statues I didn't build because I never had the hammers to spare for it. With Stone, it would be a different matter.
@ Izuul :
Spoiler:
It's a tough blow that Monty capitulated Lincoln. On the other hand, it's a risky play to let the AI do the damage and mop up afterwards. If you could bribe Monty out of the war after he killed enough units... it's a pity.
Seraiel's advice seems good, if you can afford to lose Boston or Washington...
That corn city site is in such a commanding position, it seems whoever has control over it will rule the region. It was bad luck that Montezuma got it in your game rather than Churchill.
Churchill, by the way, has just been DoWed by Suryavarman... Maybe you should consider him as your next target ? It would be very bad if Sury got 2 vassals.
I see you don't have shared borders with Churchill but I'm confident you can hold decent borders on any captured city, being Creative and building Theatre, Library and maybe some Monasteries.
Controling and then breaking the East is the difficulty on this map, so I'd consider the West as my backyard. There's no hurry to invade Saladdin. He won't move.
On Caste + CS : you need 2 turns of anarchy to get there... You still haven't adopted a religion.
Judaism seems the obvious choice. You'd be a lot safer if Sury/Monty couldn't plot on you.
On Liberalism : are you getting Nationalism ? Do you have any spare tech ? (Gunpowder, Engineering, Feudalism, Music ?) It's hard to tell from your screenshot.
If you're 10- turns from Cuirassiers, then the situation may be relatively easy to manage.
Seeing how you already have a force of Horse Archers, maybe you should look to upgrade some of those (which isn't exclusive of DoWing a soft target, a.k.a. Churchill).
Upgrading + Golden Age is a good enough reason to switch into Caste + Pacifism, imo.
Good job on libbing Steel, I know that that is very difficult and even asked Doshin lately how to achieve that. His answer was via starting a GA to create 4-6 GSs and then bulb as many techs on the way as possible, did you do the same or how did you do it?
Regarding targets, I would take out Lincoln first because he's nor PRO, and after him I'd continue with Churchill to gain enough power to go against that beasty Sury who seems to have gotten way too much space on that map. With Cannons however you're basically free in the choice id targets as Cannons beat everything, even Infantries if needed.
Honestly, I didn't do anything special to bulb Steel with Liberalism. My update post was post in part a tongue-in-cheek reaction to your praise of the HA rushes.
I bulbed Steel but that's just what I could afford.
e.g.: I couldn't have taken Rifling, which requires a lot more preparation (getting Machinery, Feudalism, Guilds and Banking or ensuring the AIs have them early is a lot of work).
What I did was:
a) Wage a slow and easy war (war of opportunity), which allowed me to keep increasing my research per turn (!).
b) I managed my tech lead. In particular, I stopped selling my techs when I had enough gold banked to reach Chemistry and Liberalism.
The tech pace hasn't been stellar, so I've been served by the map. AIs have not had more than 2 trade partners each and only Saladdin and Churchill have avoided warring.
Some more details? Sure...
I've been at war with Montezuma from 175 BC to 620 AD. This is roughly 30 turns, to capture 5 cities (the 6th city, Leiden, I settled myself to hold borders versus the English).
That excludes any focused Golden Age + Caste/Pacifism switch + heavy bulbing. Those may be good with earlier warring (strongest option) or a peaceful race to Liberalism (hardest and/because weakest).
To me, that also excludes any exagerate level of planning. I didn't force any strategy on the game. I read the flow and went with it. This is what I mostly do and why I'm very reluctant to stop research after reaching a key (military) tech. I'm not very good at assessing timelines 30 or 50 turns in advance.
All GPs were raised in Amsterdam. I only got 4 so I could bulb 3 times into:
Education, Printing Press, Chemistry.
This is very moderate, as far as bulbing goes.
On the other hand, I built the Great Library in 350 BC and the NE some time after. The Great Lib ensures one will get Liberalism on its own and allows to pump troops and infrastructure in peripheral cities.
A key wonder to wage a war while retaining a tech lead.
760 AD (Education sold to Sury 2 turns ago, Churchill researched it himself maybe last turn or this very turn):
Spoiler:
475 AD (indeed, Charlie! I didn't go straight: Agriculture, Hunting --> Steel! I took a little detour for Nationalism and drama before Paper and Education...):
Spoiler:
1 AD (researching Nationalism... you never know when it may come handy):
Spoiler:
So you see, I had my Golden Age but that was out of the Taj Mahal... I didn't do anything like beelining Steel from the begining. My bulb was very situational.
Research went Civil Service, Drama, Construction, Philosophy, Nationalism, Paper, Education, Printing Press, Gunpowder, Chemistry, Liberalism.
I'll repeat. Don't get fooled. That was an easy war I waged (this is why I waged it, after all...). Lincoln and Sury did most of the work to keep Montezuma without a doom stack.
I got in. Lincoln took peace. I took a city. Sury took a city. I bribed Sury out. I took a few cities. Sury declared again. And then it was too late: he bombarded some city defences but didn't kill a single additional unit.
So I could leave Monty at 1 isolated city, that he captured earlier from Lincoln.
In my games, Liberalism also goes away at 300 AD the latest, but I also trade a lot more than BiC. This is also the reason why I don't find Libbing Rifles more difficult than Steel, because it's only 2 techs, PP and RP, everything else comes from the AIs. Have to say though, that I didn't realize before you explained it, that Steel actually only needs PP and Chemistry, with Chemistry being obviously easier than RP because it can be GS bulbed.
In my games, Liberalism also goes away at 300 AD the latest, but I also trade a lot more than BiC. This is also the reason why I don't find Libbing Rifles more difficult than Steel, because it's only 2 techs, PP and RP, everything else comes from the AIs. Have to say though, that I didn't realize before you explained it, that Steel actually only needs PP and Chemistry, with Chemistry being obviously easier than RP because it can be GS bulbed.
I don't think one needs to forego his tech lead by trading everything to get Rifling from Liberalism. Actually, it seems dangerous to me, as one needs to research Replaceable Parts, which is quite expensive.
Snaaty advocated researching Metal Casting early (possibly an Oracle slingshot) to speed up the AIs down the Machinery line.
This type of play can allow for advantageous trades, getting Guilds and Banking ; two techs that often aren't available for trade when one reaches Liberalism. Of course, Printing Press can serve as a trade bait.
Getting Guilds and Banking while retaining a monopoly on Education is the fine point to a safe and early Lib --> Rifling.
I did play untill liberaism before I had to go abroad for 5 days. Will come with an update later tonight or tomorrow. My main issue now is how big army I need and whom to attack (several possibilities)
If, when you have the time to play, you should post screenshots and/or a save to receive comments on that point.
Off hand, if you're unsure about your army, then you should look for :
- an easy target
- a neighbour
- an isolated heretic
- an AI caught in wars
- a backwards AI
- world wonders
Scouting is key to assess your military needs and/or the better target. Investing some turns to scout with the first spare units you have makes for enlightened decisions.
If it appears the troops you have aren't enough, pump more and declare later.
It's really bad to snipe a city and then have one's advance halted by the ennemy counterattack. This can happen by lack of troops at the time of the war declaration. Needing to wait by lack of troops will lead to higher casualties, because the AI's reinforcements will be tough to fight against. They may even attack your wounded stack, where any city raider you have will be hopeless.
The first strike shouldn't be hazardous. It should be decisive or, at least, your mass of units and the incoming reinforcements should allow you to carry on and capture a 2nd and 3rd city.
If an AI has a stack of doom, always consider to :
- declare war and stay within your borders
- wait for his stack to invade
- clear his stack without them receiving defensive bonuses
It's a lot safer. You'll heal faster. You won't suffer war weariness.
Playing it safe :
Spoiler:
No stack of doom in Aztec lands.
1 turn bombard, 1 turn capture cities, 1 turn healing, reinforcement catapults and longbows on their way.
Bonus, 1000 AD update from my game :
Spoiler:
Stopped research for a while, built a few courthouses, set up the Aztec cities for a longer game and retain the ability to research.
Got a very large chunk of gold from a few AIs. Churchill up to friendly after I sold him Gunpowder (yes ?) for 880 gold.
So now I'm on my way to Rifling. Probably the last tech that is really needed, although I'll go as far as Levees/Factories, if need be.
Burnt my most recent GP on a golden age.
Slowly got an operational stack. Used two 2-move scouts to make sure there is no danger. DoWing Lincoln next turn :
Spoiler:
Few turns later, to 1180 AD :
Spoiler:
Swords are upgraded to riflemen :
Spoiler:
Yes, no war with Monty. I actually reloaded to 940 AD before playing on. DoWing Monty was useless and very stupid. I did that before getting intel on the Apostolic Palace, hoping to trigger an AP vote regarding Monty's war, rather than Lincoln's.
In effect, it just re-actualised the war weariness....
GP isn't saved for a golden age :
Spoiler:
Maces and pikes are still being produced, despite access to Rifles. The reason is that I have Cannons in quantity but don't have enough attackers to take cities in 1 turn.
I'm lacking mass.
Lincoln is finished on 1170 AD. Same turn we DoW Saladdin.
Then, sure deal, Chichi, I'll take your loyalty indeed :
Spoiler:
1310 AD :
Spoiler:
Spoiler:
Saladdin is finished in the north and capitulated.
Only Sury remains. He has 17 cities and Mao as a 5 cities vassal. He recently got access to Cavalries but still doesn't have Canons. And probably some monster stacks hiding somewhere. He has 36% of world pop and 31% of world land area to our 48% and 45%, respectively.
What do we have to crack the nut ?
27 canons, 39 riflemen, 5 catapults, 1 knight, a scout medic, 13 macemen (some used for garrison), 9 pikemen (some used for garrison)...
... This is where I'm happy to have gone for a 1-move army. It will be much more resilient to the mass of units Sury is bound to have. I'm at 0,6 of Sury's army count, so there will be a lot of clearing to do. Preferably, that will happen within my territory, to avoid exagerate war weariness. With a little gold, I'll probably do some level of upgrading (starting with the catapults).
There also isn't any clear, safe and easy invasion route, although I'll probably start with Calixtahua.
A stack of cavalries to snipe peripheral cities could be good, too. Possibly with Spy support, or Airships, if I can get my hands on those.
Errr... Not really, this is the little help I've sent to Churchill. 4 Airships, a couple rifles and some Cavalries.
Helped him clear a Chinese stack.
Now this time it's for real,
Here's the stack :
Spoiler:
Now this is good looking !
But once again, not really the stack we're looking for.
Those dudes will split and capture Sury's southern cities. You can notice they're defended by 4-5 units each, so they're easy pickings.
Especially so since Lincoln and Saladin were tasked with the capture of those southern cities, too.
Now this time it's for real,
The stack :
Spoiler:
Ah ! There we go !
Yes, you can tell this time it's for real.
And it's stack against stack, too.
I could spot Sury's 70 units stack 1N of Angkor Vat 3 turns ago (gg Airships).
And that helped a lot since it tipped me on the need for Cavalries in the area. Cavalries pillage roads. Cavalries prevent counterattacks.
Sury's stack didn't move much, until this turn. Maybe he tried to evade the hammer ?
He's gone down the hill and beyond the river... and he looks like a dead man already.
I haven't killed many units of his, yet, and I'm at 1,1 of his power. Bad sign.
Now... what happens when he loses 70 units is the question.
The Empire :
Arabian lands have kicked in. Biology farms, too.
I've switched into Caste + State Property.
Windmills and Workshops now have overtaken the land. Cities evolve at happy cap : farms are workshoped when growth has no more value.
Yay, Cannons, Cavs and Rifles, my favourite units ^^ Have you thought about building the Kremlin and keep relying on the whip? I believe Kremlin-enhanced Biology whips have an even higher efficiency than SP + Caste Workshops, and you'd get the unita earlier too.
Cleared Sury's stack over 3-4 turns and he capped.
Meanwhile, I was able to snipe the northern city and capture two cities in the south.
Mao wouldn't fight an additional turn and capitulated as well. Maybe because I could clear a 10 units stack of his in the English lands.
Suryavarman, I'll accept your loyalty :
Spoiler:
Domination was rolled.
Spoiler:
Late game Caste System meant I had a healthy population.
That awarded a 440.000 points score. Note there aren't any money problems, either, although that should be expected for a relatively late win, for Pangaea.
Happiness was the main late game issue, as the AIs all went for Emancipation (and kept going into it, despite a few bribes into Caste System).
I had to invest in happy buildings and garrison units (hence the number of pikemen built).
I also invested in the Culture slider for a couple of turns, which goes against my principles of "good management".
Statistics :
Spoiler:
I could upgrade whatever units were useful to upgrade.
Gift cities :
Spoiler:
Neat, thanks !
Final save is attached, if you wanna peak in.
Altough I should emphasize that the winning move was the Aztec invasion, from 1 AD to 600 AD.
That left us in a very good economic shape and ensured we had the means to outproduce the other AIs. It also solved all the diplo questions.
Going for Liberalism --> Steel also granted the army an outstanding durability.
The opener was a little bit more difficult than expected, due to the lack of food for high-quality cities.
I think the map looked deceptively easy. Production was hard to come by in the earlier stages of the game.
The easier point was the abundant commerce, having a gold resource and many FIN lake/coast tiles to work.
Interesting. You had at least 2 very hood games lately, I think 1 IMM and 1 Deity. Iirc you won way earlier than in this one, and that even though you basically got the first civ for free, as Minty did all the heavy lifting.
Can't look at the save because still no PC back.
What would you say took you so long? Was it the massive army of Sury or simply too little food?
I somehow have begun doubting, if the HoF maps are really that much easier. Yes, they have much Commerce, but having more food imo changes the game completely. One can make up for lacking Commerce by Scientists, bulbs and trades, but there is nothing with which one can militarically compete against a map where all cities have 2 food, compared to a map that has 3 golds but only 1 food / city.
The Immortal game you're thinking about is kevtrev's Cuirassiers challenge.
I could get a very early win, yes, 780 AD conquest.
The capital had 2 6F tiles and that is a huge difference, compared with a single 4F tile.
There also were better peripheral cities.
And the starting location was very central, meaning the army could circle very close to the borders and take down rivals. Travel time was minimal.
Finally, I didn't need to capture many rival cities, as I cleared units in the field and AIs scooped after loosing a city or two.
Spoiler:
In this WvO game, the capital is quite poor and so are the first cities one can settle.
That explains some of the delay.
Then, I had to kill many more units to have the AIs vassal, except for friendly Churchill.
There were much longer travel times, going for Lincoln to the end of Saladin's land and then all the way back to Sury. A Saladin --> Lincoln --> Monty --> Sury route would save 20 turns or so, just from moving units.
Also, I took down Monty with swords, not with macemen, as in the Ramessess game. That means I had to stop agression for a while, teching up to a new era. And this is a delay, too.
All in all, it's possible I could have been more agressive, pumping more troops from smaller cities and researching slower would have been better. By the late game, I had an overload of commerce and production.
I didn't really see the need for more agressive play, however. I like to retain a strong economy and the means to tech up. I see that as a security, an option for the future. Sometimes it can harm my play, as it means I delay the military build up to research and, thus, can miss on opportunities (or just war later and slower).
Look at these killed units from the WvO game :
Spoiler:
Unfortunately, I don't have the same screen for the Ramessess game but you can make your own idea from this one :
Spoiler:
Hint, hint : 6 Great Generals produced vs 3. The mass of units on these two maps weren't comparable at all.
Of course, at an earlier date, there are fewer units to kill. But we're also comparing a 43 cities map with a 63 cities map.
@ HoF :
You're well aware it's not just the capital that makes a map's quality
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I wonder if one could make lincoln revolt against mobty by giving him back a big city. If its close, 1 city should be enough so that he passes the 50 land and population requirement. Then you could conquer the rest of Lincoln alone 
