Denmark

[4CV]

Excuse, I come late to the discussion, so I skipped some parts of it.

What I understand is that human almost always find ways to do things better than a script. That is what handicaps are for.

But then we have some parts of the mechanics that humans can do still better than in any other parts. Let's agree that pillaging is one of those things that humans can do even better than other mechanics.
In this case, any civ whose toolkit depends on pillaging is always going to be relatively stronger in human hands. If we balance with AI, it's overpowered in human hands. If we nerf it because humans are too strong, it becomes underpowered when played by the AI.

I see three ways for dealing with the problem.

1. Avoid using pillaging as an unique ability. Boring.
2. Make AI better at pillaging until the margin benefit is the same as any other mechanic. Difficult. Plus, there are other mechanics that need to be addressed if we take this step.
3. Give different handicaps to the civ when played by humans. Not sure whether it is feasible.

If #3 were possible, then we could let Gazebo balance AI among them, and then ask for tweaks to Denmark human handicaps if it turns out to be unbalanced.

How about 3a. Stronger "Second Denmark" (like JFDs Togo/Japan mod, for instance), "AI only".
Or 4. "Player still can choose to play Denmark. No AI Denmark will ever appear after random setup" and balance under that conditions? "Human only" civ might also be fun.

(Sorry, if something like this has already been discussed and finally dismissed earlier)

 

[azum4roll]

What about giving yields for both pillaging and attacking cities (and remove city attack gold), so that AI can benefit from it? Numbers can always be balanced.

 

[tu_79]

How about 3a. Stronger "Second Denmark" (like JFDs Togo/Japan mod, for instance), "AI only".
Or 4. "Player still can choose to play Denmark. No AI Denmark will ever appear after random setup" and balance under that conditions? "Human only" civ might also be fun.

(Sorry, if something like this has already been discussed and finally dismissed earlier)

That would be a way for implementing point 3. Not bad. Denmark vs Denmark AI.

 

[Gazebo]

Anyways

 

[pineappledan]

How on earth is Ghandi 5th of 8 for score with 1 city? lol

 

[Gazebo]

How on earth is Ghandi 5th of 8 for score with 1 city? lol

He was doing much better...then Roma Invicta happened...

G

 

[Enrico Swagolo]

Anyways

View attachment 515654

What those mentioned Rome/Denmark/Greece changes will be like, Gazebo? You seem to be testing those three civs here.
Nice to see Harald pillaging like a good viking guy.

 

[Gazebo]

What those mentioned Rome/Denmark/Greece changes will be like, Gazebo? You seem to be testing those three civs here.
Nice to see Harald pillaging like a good viking guy.

Victory yields are now like Pillage yields, so they are funneled through the unit's origin city. I've added a UI element in the unit mouseover that shows you origin cities (yay), and bumped the yields up to ~25 (from 3/5). Vikings also lose gold on hitting cities from their UA, but I bumped up the other elements of those unique promotions.

    ('BUILDING_ODEON', 'YIELD_CULTURE', 25),
    ('BUILDING_FLAVIAN_COLOSSEUM', 'YIELD_GREAT_GENERAL_POINTS', 10),
    ('BUILDING_FLAVIAN_COLOSSEUM', 'YIELD_GREAT_ADMIRAL_POINTS', 10),
    ('BUILDING_FLAVIAN_COLOSSEUM', 'YIELD_GOLDEN_AGE_POINTS', 25);

    ('BUILDING_JELLING_STONES', 'YIELD_GOLD', 30),
    ('BUILDING_JELLING_STONES', 'YIELD_CULTURE', 30);

<Row>
            <Type>PROMOTION_VIKING</Type>
            <Description>TXT_KEY_PROMOTION_VIKING</Description>
            <Help>TXT_KEY_PROMOTION_VIKING_HELP</Help>
            <Sound>AS2D_IF_LEVELUP</Sound>
            <PortraitIndex>3</PortraitIndex>
            <IconAtlas>EXPANSION_PROMOTION_ATLAS</IconAtlas>
            <PediaType>PEDIA_ATTRIBUTES</PediaType>
            <PediaEntry>TXT_KEY_PROMOTION_VIKING</PediaEntry>
            <CannotBeChosen>true</CannotBeChosen>
            <NeutralHealChange>5</NeutralHealChange>
            <FreePillageMoves>true</FreePillageMoves>
            <PillageBonusStrength>25</PillageBonusStrength>
        </Row>
        <Row>
            <Type>PROMOTION_LONGBOAT</Type>
            <Description>TXT_KEY_PROMOTION_LONGBOAT</Description>
            <Help>TXT_KEY_PROMOTION_LONGBOAT_HELP</Help>
            <Sound>AS2D_IF_LEVELUP</Sound>
            <PortraitIndex>3</PortraitIndex>
            <IconAtlas>EXPANSION_PROMOTION_ATLAS</IconAtlas>
            <PediaType>PEDIA_ATTRIBUTES</PediaType>
            <PediaEntry>TXT_KEY_PROMOTION_LONGBOAT</PediaEntry>
            <CannotBeChosen>true</CannotBeChosen>
            <FreePillageMoves>true</FreePillageMoves>
            <PillageBonusStrength>34</PillageBonusStrength>
            <IgnoreZOC>true</IgnoreZOC>
        </Row>

G

 

[TheBigFundamental]

<NeutralHealChange>5</NeutralHealChange>

What does this mean?

 

[BiteInTheMark]

Hmmm... Bonus strenght on pillaged tiles.... on ships?
If I pillage something with a ship the improvement is gone, but didnt receive the pillaged status.

 

[pineappledan]

Neutral heal change means the unit heals +5 hp when it fortified in neutral territory. There’s also friendly and foreign heal changes.

This might have been a great place to add back the XP on pillage mechanic. All viking units could get maybe 3XP for pillaging a tile. This was originally scrapped on the scout line because it was under-used, but G has suggested that the Denmark AI is specifically focused on pillaging, so this might be the best -- possibly the only -- place that pillage XP could make a comeback.

Personally, I think a move after attack fits the Longboat better than ZOC. Feels more hit and run if the boats had that.

 

[Rekk]

This might have been a great place to add back the XP on pillage mechanic. All viking units could get maybe 3XP for pillaging a tile. This was originally scrapped on the scout line because it was under-used, but G has suggested that the Denmark AI is specifically focused on pillaging, so this might be the best -- possibly the only -- place that pillage XP could make a comeback.

Not that I disagree with your idea, but paratroopers and special forces (maybe x-com too) have +5 XP on pillage as innate promotions. (Zeppelins have +5 +2 XP per turn in enemy territory).

 

[civplayer33]

Zeppelins have +5 XP per turn in enemy territory

+2
/smart-ass out

 

[pineappledan]

Not that I disagree with your idea, but paratroopers and special forces (maybe x-com too) have +5 XP on pillage as innate promotions. (Zeppelins have +5 XP per turn in enemy territory).

I forgot about that.
Still, it seems fitting; I'm not sure what enhanced healing in neutral territory is meant to reflect.

 

[pineappledan]

@Gazebo, is the yields on kill table a new table, or does it replace the old Building_YieldsOnVictory table?

I can only speak for myself, but if you have simply 'Dojo'd the existing table then I will take my own advice and make a YieldsOnKill promotion from the wonder in my existing modmod. I'm still sad to see a unique yields implementation schema go, but I'm not aware of any custom buildings that implement the table as it exists now, except for my national wonder.

Also, what will you do with Orders now? You showed the new Colosseum and Acropolis yields, but not that.

 

[Gazebo]

@Gazebo, is the yields on kill table a new table, or does it replace the old Building_YieldsOnVictory table?

I can only speak for myself, but if you have simply 'Dojo'd the existing table then I will take my own advice and make a YieldsOnKill promotion from the wonder in my existing modmod. I'm still sad to see a unique yields implementation schema go, but I'm not aware of any custom buildings that implement the table as it exists now, except for my national wonder.

Also, what will you do with Orders now? You showed the new Colosseum and Acropolis yields, but not that.

Already discussed this elsewhere. There will be a global table that replicates current behavior. I like this table on the building because it’s much more efficient code wise than the promotion system. It’s also already bundled into my instant yield main function.

G

 

[pineappledan]

Already discussed this elsewhere. There will be a global table that replicates current behavior. I like this table on the building because it’s much more efficient code wise than the promotion system. It’s also already bundled into my instant yield main function.

Cool cool. It was discussed before, but that was a discussion of intent, whereas you have the actual table now. I just wanted to confirm that things hadn't gone in a different direction.

Im guessing that the Order's current functionality is going to be preserved then, which is cool. It's hands down the most interesting, unique belief building then.

 

[Gazebo]

Hmmm... Bonus strenght on pillaged tiles.... on ships?
If I pillage something with a ship the improvement is gone, but didnt receive the pillaged status.

Just a typo - wasn't finished redoing that promotion. It's now...

Costs no Movement points to Pillage, and Double Movement speed on Coastal Tiles. +15% Combat Strength when attacking or defending Coastal Tiles.

G

 

[chicorbeef]

Double Movement on Coastal Tiles is pretty strong. Only Naval Melee though, right?

 

[pineappledan]

Costs no Movement points to Pillage, and Double Movement speed on Coastal Tiles. +15% Combat Strength when attacking or defending Coastal Tiles.

Uh Oh. I've toyed with the double move on coast for other units and I've abandoned it. I had assumed before coming to this mod that you had come to the same conclusion I had, which is why it had been dropped from ironclads.

Even if you give a flat -1 move, It's an absolute tremendous amount of movement, which stacks with things like lighthouse/Grand Canal/Imperialism to make maneuvering trivial. This translates to just double movement on all triremes, which is far more powerful than England's naval boost.

I would ask that you reconsider using double move on coast.