Developments in and the future of the EU

[AdrienIer]

Re the common european army: one has to seriously be living in a bubble if they actually think that - moreover after the debt charade, and the rise of fascism in various euro govs - soldiers from the other end of the continent will come die for you. That goes for anyone, not just the baltics. Just to be real.

Should we die for Dantzig ?

 

[Akka]

Before the "quick NATO intervention" in Libya: libyans employed african migrants in their own booming economy.

After the glorious intervention: Libya remains mired in anarchy, its economy is destroyed and living standards plummeted, uncountable people were killed both in the wars and due to the destruction of a functioning society, migrants are traded in slave markets, and the EU (after pretended to be all humanitarian and dumping migrants into refugee camps for the italians to deal with alone) now pays the libyan warlords to mistreat migrants as much as possible in order to stem the flow. Not that you will find many details about that on BBC or other mainstream media. But it's so visible and outrageous that some do get published, thanks for pointing them out!

I'm sure the EU is also to blame for the civil war that started in Libya too

You can argue it would have been better in the long run to let Ghaddafi paint his own country in blood so that stability could be preserved (and I might see the validity of the theorical point), but the usual blaming of EVERYTHING on the EU because you've got a pet peeve is both annoying and intellectually dishonest.
EU didn't bomb Syria, it isn't exactly a place of peace and prosperity for this, so maybe Libya problems aren't rooted in the evil EU, but more simply in the fact that it had a civil war.

 

[Kyriakos]

Should we die for Dantzig ?

I wouldn't Yet this isn't exactly Hitler we are talking about, but Putin, who is a russian version of US imperialism, nothing more.

That said, the french sort of weren't willing to continue the war anyway, so in the end they didn't want to die for it (not that this is commendable; sadly France has been the source of many of the current issues in Europe anyway, including Turkey in Europe which the french insisted on having in 1922, or even Turkey as a country in the Aegean).

 

[AdrienIer]

I wouldn't

That worked well in Czechoslovakia...

I don't favor appeasing expansionist authoritarians, whatever their nationality. They don't stop at "reasonable" demands.

 

[Marla_Singer]

I'm sorry if this will piss you off even more, but the reactions of innonimatu and Kyriakos kind of prove my point: Europeans are in denial that they should ensure their geopolitical and economical stability by themelves. And this even after the severe crisis which they have faced in the last decade.

 

[Verbose]

I'm sorry if this will piss you off even more, but the reactions of innonimatu and Kyriakos kind of prove my point: Europeans are in denial that they should ensure their geopolitical and economical stability by themelves. And this even after the severe crisis which they have faced in the last decade.

Well, some might be... That's always going to be hard to avoid in a place as large and diverse as the EU of course.

Otoh the point is that the EU is internally divided, and seemingly more occupied with internal frictions of all kinds than with various external challenges looming?

 

[Verbose]

I wouldn't Yet this isn't exactly Hitler we are talking about, but Putin, who is a russian version of US imperialism, nothing more.

No... Context matters.

Russia's problem is that it jumps off the same cliffs the US already have, and regretted.

But we all end up paying for it through reduced collective security, with Russia as the spoiling agent.

 

[Kyriakos]

No... Context matters.

Russia's problem is that it jumps off the same cliffs the US already have, and regretted.

But we all end up paying for it through reduced collective security, with Russia as the spoiling agent.

I am with you on this, in that i am against Russia doing what it did in Ukraine (not familiar enough with the Georgia issue, but possibly also there).
That said... i am not seeing how the Eu represents some moral high ground. For starters, the Eu clearly couldn't care less about half its own member-states.

It is easy to watch from Sweden, yet not all of us live in the non-pillaged parts of the Eu, and are not of positive view of what this 'union' is; nor could we be.

Furthermore, context also exists re country relations outside the Eu. Eg there is zero chance of a war between Greece and Russia, while not at all zero chance for Finland or the baltics. Furthermore, with their clown govs and misanthropic (and dumb) stance against us, you can be certain not one soldier from our own army would go defend Finland or the others there even if they are overrun by Russia.

 

[AdrienIer]

I am with you on this, in that i am against Russia doing what it did in Ukraine (not familiar enough with the Georgia issue, but possibly also there).
That said... i am not seeing how the Eu represents some moral high ground. For starters, the Eu clearly couldn't care less about half its own member-states.

It is easy to watch from Sweden, yet not all of us live in the non-pillaged parts of the Eu, and are not of positive view of what this 'union' is; nor could we be.

Furthermore, context also exists re country relations outside the Eu. Eg there is zero chance of a war between Greece and Russia, while not at all zero chance for Finland or the baltics.

Dude the only place that can claim to having been screwed by the EU lately is Greece. That's not "half of the EU". The eastern countries would be in a disastrous state without the EU's help : what would Romania do without the 5bn net positive it gets every year from the EU ?

 

[Lexicus]

I don't favor appeasing expansionist authoritarians, whatever their nationality. They don't stop at "reasonable" demands.

Putin isn't really much of an expansionist, though. He just wants to do his mob thing in Russia, not start an apocalyptic race war.

 

[AdrienIer]

Putin isn't really much of an expansionist, though. He just wants to do his mob thing in Russia, not start an apocalyptic race war.

Georgia and Ukraine beg to differ

 

[Lexicus]

Those fit my point. Destabilizing those countries is part of an overall defensive strategy. To be clear I'm not saying Putin's actions are somehow justifiable, just that comparisons with the revanchist politics of the Nazis seem to totally miss the mark.

 

[Kyriakos]

Dude the only place that can claim to having been screwed by the EU lately is Greece. That's not "half of the EU". The eastern countries would be in a disastrous state without the EU's help : what would Romania do without the 5bn net positive it gets every year from the EU ?

Even assuming that is so, why moan about no army from here coming to help? Given we sort of are having an army, unlike most of the Eu - ie more than half, if you wish to be so stuck on that term.
There isn't going to be a common eu army, tldr, invade stuff on your own.

 

[Hehehe]

Finland has no serious army either, it just has something more than a purely token army.

The Finnish military is srs bsns. Do not disrespect. We have a million men worth of cannon fodder

But on a more serious note, while the Finnish military is one of the few European militaries that is still geared towards a total war, you're right in that it is vastly outmatched by Russia, and you're right that NATO security guarantees are a bit of a hypothetical (if I were American, would I risk a nuclear war to defend the Baltic states? Maybe not)

 

[AdrienIer]

Even assuming that is so, why moan about no army from here coming to help? Given we sort of are having an army, unlike most of the Eu - ie more than half, if you wish to be so stuck on that term.
There isn't going to be a common eu army, tldr, invade stuff on your own.

You're the one that keeps saying that you won't send help if others need it, I'm not the one who brought it up.

 

[Broken_Erika]

Russia tried fighting Finland's "token army" before, it didn't go so well for the Russians.....
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Winter_War

 

[Lexicus]

Russia tried fighting Finland's "token army" before, it didn't go so well for the Russians.....

And the West has underestimated the Russians before, it didn't go so well for the West.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/French_invasion_of_Russia

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eastern_Front_(World_War_II)

 

[Kyriakos]

You're the one that keeps saying that you won't send help if others need it, I'm not the one who brought it up.

Oh, i thought by 'common eu army' you meant something more like a union, and not as much of a 'common' army as this is a 'union'. And the one who keeps bringing up the mad idea of a common eu army is not me, of course.

 

[Yeekim]

I am with you on this, in that i am against Russia doing what it did in Ukraine (not familiar enough with the Georgia issue, but possibly also there).
That said... i am not seeing how the Eu represents some moral high ground. For starters, the Eu clearly couldn't care less about half its own member-states.

It is easy to watch from Sweden, yet not all of us live in the non-pillaged parts of the Eu, and are not of positive view of what this 'union' is; nor could we be.

Furthermore, context also exists re country relations outside the Eu. Eg there is zero chance of a war between Greece and Russia, while not at all zero chance for Finland or the baltics. Furthermore, with their clown govs and misanthropic (and dumb) stance against us, you can be certain not one soldier from our own army would go defend Finland or the others there even if they are overrun by Russia.

We're heartbroken.

 

[Marla_Singer]

Popularity of the European Union
Difference between positive opinions and negative opinions

Before Brexit - May 2016

After Brexit - November 2017