Developments in and the future of the EU

[Marla_Singer]

Seriously @innonimatu and @Kyriakos, do you believe that yelling louder can bring us anywhere?

Of course you don't, because that's not your objective. Your objective is actually to avoid us to get a constructive discussion about the future, how to move Greek out of the crisis, how to prevent it to happen again in the future. You actually don't want to talk about this, and the reason why is because you just have no clue.

Now prove me wrong and tell me what are the solutions according to you. What should be done now?

 

[Broken_Erika]

Bring back the Roman-style gladiator games and throw in all of the Greek politicians and bankers who sucked the nation dry and watch them get eaten by lions. Won't solve any problems, but it would certainly help with morale.....

 

[innonimatu]

Because democracy is less important than people's wages.

If you start giving up a little democracy in exchange for wage security, you will find yourself without either. Laws will be bought by the bosses, and the bosses are not in a mood to act "enlightened" about having consumers (wore they ever?). They are in full rapacious mode.

Seriously @innonimatu and @Kyriakos, do you believe that yelling louder can bring us anywhere?

Of course you don't, because that's not your objective. Your objective is actually to avoid us to get a constructive discussion about the future, how to move Greek out of the crisis, how to prevent it to happen again in the future. You actually don't want to talk about this, and the reason why is because you just have no clue.

Now prove me wrong and tell me what are the solutions according to you. What should be done now?

I already gave you my solution: end the EU. Leave it to rot on its own as not all members are going to kill it simultaneously - people take their time to detox. Greece should have left, long ago. It should leave now. Then it can rebuilt an economy to serve the greeks, seek trade partners on terms that are adequate to Greece, and reject those that are inadequate, equally important.
As for the debt, default on all foreign debt. Use what reserves there are to cover priority imports, there is a whole world available to trade even if the they throws a tantrum and locks its toys temporarily. Countries have defaulted, time and again, and life goes on. Finally goes on, after default.

 

[luiz]

If you start giving up a little democracy in exchange for wage security, you will find yourself without either. Laws will be bought by the bosses, and the bosses are not in a mood to act "enlightened" about having consumers (wore they ever?). They are in full rapacious mode.



I already gave you my solution: end the EU. Leave it to rot on its own as not all members are going to kill it simultaneously - people take their time to detox. Greece should have left, long ago. It should leave now. Then it can rebuilt an economy to serve the greeks, seek trade partners on terms that are adequate to Greece, and reject those that are inadequate, equally important.
As for the debt, default on all foreign debt. Use what reserves there are to cover priority imports, there is a whole world available to trade even if the they throws a tantrum and locks its toys temporarily. Countries have defaulted, time and again, and life goes on. Finally goes on, after default.

The problem with Greece is that even if they had zero debt (and zero interest), they would still have been unable to finance themselves (meaning paying for stuff like public wages, education, Healthcare, etc) without access to credit. So default was not a great solution for them. If you run a primary surplus and are only in déficit because of interests, it's a completely different case. Not that a default is ever painless, but at least it's doable. In the Greek case it wasn't.

 

[Yeekim]

Because democracy is less important than people's wages.

I strongly disagree.
Tsipras should have respected the referendum result and dealt with consequences.
The damn clown campaigned for that very result, expecting... seriously, I don't know what he was expecting.

life goes on. Finally goes on

This reasoning can be used to make a nuclear war look like a good idea. Just wipe the slate clean and get a nice fresh start, eh?

 

[dutchfire]

Some of Greece's largest problems are the gap between the interests of the economical and political leadership and those of the general population, with associated problems like a very concentrated media landscape and economy. That isn't going away if they would leave the EU. For a Greece outside of the EU, I suppose the main question will be if the new oligarchy will be backed by the US, by Russia or by China.

 

[REDY]

Some of Greece's largest problems are the gap between the interests of the economical and political leadership and those of the general population, with associated problems like a very concentrated media landscape and economy. That isn't going away if they would leave the EU. For a Greece outside of the EU, I suppose the main question will be if the new oligarchy will be backed by the US, by Russia or by China.

This seems like description of the Czech Republic. I wonder if its not EU universal
The thing is that bit part of EU economy is about on eu donations and buying and criplling innovative companies by corporations, without any positive effect on people. Czech unemployment rate is EU opossite to Greek we are also poorer and poorer. The costs of living are skyrocketing while wages dont.

 

[Hrothbern]

Perhaps one could say that in the very rich countries the parasite behaviour of the oligarchical entities does not hurt the ordinary people as much as in poorer countries, because the total pancake is so much bigger, and it just channels economical "surplus" to the few very rich.
But that model, democracy with a too strong influence of oligarchical entities, in the veil of the "free market", encouraged or de facto accepted by the dominating governments, leads to stagnation of the development of the social benefits in poorer countries, even if the total GDP grows.

Fitting with this is that the UN institutes put forward more and more the "inclusive growth" instead of just GDP growth.

 

[Verbose]

I do recall countries telling the IMF to **** off. Malaysia did it in the asian crisis of 1998, did much better that obedient Indonesia. But don't let that spoil the narrative of inevitability... better not let people know they have a choice, right?

IMF was wrong about the benefits of austerity. Everyone knows that by now. It's what the IMF is also saying.

The funny bit is of course that any number of Asians saying this didn't help. It was only after applying the same medicine to Greece, with the same effects, that the IMF woke up to changing the formulas it operated on — beginning with the realisation that every 1% govt budget saved through austerity measures gets add on effects of more that 1% in reduced GDP, making everyone worse off.

Besides, the IMF wouldn't have been a blip on the horizon had there been a fundamental confidence in Greek national finances, politics and administration when it was subjected to the chock of an international crisis. But there wasn't.

 

[Kozmos]

"I'm not racist, I just hate the mud-races"?

It isn't really about race, but culture no? It's hard for people to lose general impressions. The same way most Eastern Europeans scoff and smirk when they read about the French protesting about working more than 40 hours a week.

 

[innonimatu]

The problem with Greece is that even if they had zero debt (and zero interest), they would still have been unable to finance themselves (meaning paying for stuff like public wages, education, Healthcare, etc) without access to credit. So default was not a great solution for them. If you run a primary surplus and are only in déficit because of interests, it's a completely different case. Not that a default is ever painless, but at least it's doable. In the Greek case it wasn't.

But they have been required to produce a current account surplus anyway. Their creditors demand both repayment and interest.

This reasoning can be used to make a nuclear war look like a good idea. Just wipe the slate clean and get a nice fresh start, eh?

Except no one is advocating a nuclear war here. Bad analogy is just bad.

I could say that advocating the repayment of debt at all costs is similar to advocating that people always remain locked in abusive relationships where they are beaten up and raped daily... because hey, they signed a contract.

Moderator Action: Please be less graphic in future. Thank you. ~ Arakhor

 

[Yeekim]

Bad analogy is just bad.

Life eventually goes on after nuclear war. Life also goes on after total default. That is where similarities between the two end. Which is why it was a perfect analogy to show why your argument lacks persuasiveness. Just because something does not destroy the planet does not mean it is a good idea.