Did Jesus (the man) actually exist?

[shadow2k]

Can his actual existence be proven in the same way that people like Hannibal or Julius Caesar can be shown to have existed? This is really an attempt to disguise the real agenda which is all about trying to set the stage that Christianity was a "fraud religion" made up by some group of people to deceive others for some reason. The thinking goes that if Jesus cannot be "proven" to be real, then his religion must also be fake.

There isn't any evidence to prove Jesus lived, but not having other supporting evidence beyond the bibilcal tests does not disprove that Jesus existed. It does leave the door wide open to propose an alternative with its own supporting evidence. What is your theory about how christianity got started and show us your evidence.

Like Shakespeare, it's OK to deny he wrote the plays, but you need a reasonable explanation for how they got written then. Jesus and Christianity are no different.

I may deal with the other questions later.

Honestly, I'm not trying to attack Christianity. I'm actually more interested in the responses from those who aren't religious. But I didn't feel the need to exclude the religious, especially when they might have some insight/knowledge that I might not be aware of. Unfortunately, I'm afraid most of their comments will be bible based, which does nothing for me.

If I wanted to debate about Christianity, there are far better topics in my opinion. We've beaten most of them to death here I think. I don't think any argument I put forth will change a believer's mind, but that's not my intent.

This forum is pretty heavy on the non-believers. Atheists/Agnostics consistently dominate the polls about religion. So I wonder how many of them believe Jesus existed as a man, and why. I see people talk about proof, even archaelogical proof. But where is it?

When we talk about creation, people put forth proof, and it's either accepted or refuted. But the only proof I see put forth for the mere existence of Jesus (or whatever his "real" name was, semantics IMO), is the Bible...books written 40yrs after his death/resurrection/crucifixion/whatever.

 

[Birdjaguar]

Not a problem; maybe you should state your questions better to get the answers you are seeking.

 

[North King]

What archaeological evidence is there to prove his existence? Obviously we know where many biblical cities were. Spots were he was "allegedly" entombed, crucified, etc... But what actual proof is there that he was actually at any of these spots?

Lots of stuff like that, of course. Most of my thoughts were directed at the historical part. Though if you're determined to doubt every single thing, then no amount of evidence will convince you anyway...

 

[shadow2k]

How about the letters of Paul? Those were written before Mark.



Jesus was never famous while he lived. There are no short answers to this, I will try to write a proper one tomorrow.

You are mixing up two ideas: one that Jesus lived and founded Christiantiy and two, that the stories told in the new testament are 100% accurate.

Jesus has been depicted in many different ways. So you don't like a white European version of Jesus, some people do. Get over it. How he may have looked is not relevant to the question of whether or not he ever lived.

So...roughly 20yrs after death? Why did he keep quiet for 20yrs? And why did no historian of the time write about Jesus?

Wasn't it portrayed that it was well known who he was when he entered Jerusalem? Didn't the Romans know of him? Did he not create scenes attracting great attention of both the inhabitants of Jerusalem and the Romans who were in the city? Wasn't that why it was dangerous for him to be doing it? Wasn't he followed by hordes of people? The people he'd healed/resurrected/whatever?

If he wasn't famous (relatively speaking of course), then why did people believe? We're told that people witnessed all these miracles. That's why he gained followers, right? If only a small number of people witnessed these things and followed him, then why did people believe so strongly in him after the fact? Because the apostles were good storytellers?

The way he actually looked is irrelevant. The fact that there are no drawings or anything of him from that time just seems odd for such a popular fellow. I do wonder why he's depicted in such a way that seems to be at odds with what the most likely look for him would be...but it's besides the point. If there were actual carvings/drawings of him created during his time (or shortly after), I'd even see it as plausible proof. There are none though. What we have...doesn't fit IMO.

Do ME Christians depict Jesus as white with long hair? Honest question, I really don't know.

 

[Spartan117]

There probably was a 'Jesus'. Whether he had super-awesome powers or not, I dont think he did.

what he said....

he is just some guy thought to be a a leader of a possible jewish rebellion that was then eliminated by romans...for fear of leading a rebellion against rome

 

[Quasar1011]

Name me one account of Jesus written before the gospels were written...

How about Psalm 22?

"Many bulls surround me;
strong bulls of Bashan encircle me.
Roaring lions tearing their prey
open their mouths wide against me.
I am poured out like water,
and all my bones are out of joint.
My heart has turned to wax;
it has melted away within me.
My strength is dried up like a potsherd,
and my tongue sticks to the roof of my mouth;
you lay me in the dust of death.
Dogs have surrounded me;
a band of evil men has encircled me,
they have pierced my hands and my feet.
I can count all my bones;
people stare and gloat over me.
They divide my garments among them
and cast lots for my clothing."

Jesus was never famous while he lived.

He was famous in Syria and Israel, while He lived.

Matthew 4:24
News about him spread all over Syria, and people brought to him all who were ill with various diseases, those suffering severe pain, the demon-possessed, those having seizures, and the paralyzed

Mark 1:28
News about him spread quickly over the whole region of Galilee.

Mark 1:45
Instead he went out and began to talk freely, spreading the news. As a result, Jesus could no longer enter a town openly but stayed outside in lonely places. Yet the people still came to him from everywhere.

Luke 4:14
Jesus returned to Galilee in the power of the Spirit, and news about him spread through the whole countryside.

 

[Leatherneck]

He's right here ... hangin with the smilies.

 

[shadow2k]

How about Psalm 22?

"Many bulls surround me;
strong bulls of Bashan encircle me.
Roaring lions tearing their prey
open their mouths wide against me.
I am poured out like water,
and all my bones are out of joint.
My heart has turned to wax;
it has melted away within me.
My strength is dried up like a potsherd,
and my tongue sticks to the roof of my mouth;
you lay me in the dust of death.
Dogs have surrounded me;
a band of evil men has encircled me,
they have pierced my hands and my feet.
I can count all my bones;
people stare and gloat over me.
They divide my garments among them
and cast lots for my clothing."



He was famous in Syria and Israel, while He lived.

Matthew 4:24
News about him spread all over Syria, and people brought to him all who were ill with various diseases, those suffering severe pain, the demon-possessed, those having seizures, and the paralyzed

Mark 1:28
News about him spread quickly over the whole region of Galilee.

Mark 1:45
Instead he went out and began to talk freely, spreading the news. As a result, Jesus could no longer enter a town openly but stayed outside in lonely places. Yet the people still came to him from everywhere.

Luke 4:14
Jesus returned to Galilee in the power of the Spirit, and news about him spread through the whole countryside.

Forgive my relative ignorance of Christian/religous terminology. What I mean to say is non-religous writings of the time. Strictly historical based.


And thank you for the quotes. While I have read the Bible, it's been a long time. I was pretty sure he was considered "famous" relatively speaking, in that area of the world. I do not believe that his entrance into Jerusalem, and the events that transpired afterwards would have gone unnoticed by historians of the time. Which is why I question why there were no historical writings of the time that mention him. Only religious ones. Please correct me if I'm wrong.

 

[Narz]

I doubt he existed, no.

 

[aaglo]

I think he really did exist. And I think that I don't have to prove it, because I only think he existed (yeah, I'm not saying he did).

 

[Asclepius]

Yeshua is the original Hebrew proper name for Jesus of Nazareth, a Jewish Rabbi (and more) who lived from about 6 B.C.E. to 27 C.E. (A.D.) In other words, Yeshua was the name His mother called Him when shall called Him for supper.

Jesus is a mis-transliteration of the Greek mis-transliteration, Yeysu. (Some say the name Jesus probably developed from the name of the pagan god Zeus, but there is little or no evidence for this.) It is true that Emporer Constantine mistook Jesus for the Greek god Apollo, but that is another story.

Jesus is not a mis-transliteration, it is merely the Latinized spelling of the Greek version of the name Joshua. Just as Harry is the English version of Heinrich. Jesus actually means 'Saviour' but was a relatively common name at that time. Unlike the name Christ which is the Latinized version of the Greek title 'Christos' which means 'God's anointed one' or Messiah.

 

[CurtSibling]

Did Jesus (the man) actually exist?

I tend to think JC was not real.

I think he was an archetype, to represent the ideal of christianity.
A figure who was constructed from various messiah-claimants of the era.

Palestine was awash with men who spoke for the 'divine' in that time...

.

 

[Neonanocyborgasm]

What's the proof?

I will say up front that many historians accept Jesus' existence as historical fact. However, acceptance and proof are two different things.

So honestly...what proof is there? Don't ask me to disprove his existence, I won't even bother responding. And please don't cite how many people believe or follow him. It's not proof of anything. I can show you a lot of people who believe in Shiva too.

The fact that his existence is widely accepted even by historians simply means it's accepted. Not that there is proof. Which is what I'd like to see.

I think Jesus is largely a legendary figure, invented to retroactively explain the theology behind the Passion, among other tales. There are several reasons I believe this.

For one, there are no contemporary mentions of him, despite the supposed grandness of his movement. The few mentions there are, appear to be forgeries, probably inserted by copiers (ex: Josephus, a Roman Jew, actually calls Jesus a "God", which would be ridiculous for him to believe).

Second, the accounts of the Gospels not only are contradictory to each other, but even to history. Among the contradictions to history: they present the Pharisees as being a major authority of Judaism, when at the time, they were nothing more than lay people who studied Judaic theology. They also present Pontius Pilate as being somehow at the mercy of the Jewish sanhedrin, when, in fact, it was the other way around. Roman governors were not afraid to use violence to suppress dissent in the provinces, and were given command of sufficient troops to do so. The fact that they did so in 77 and 135 proves them capable of such.

Third, there were many gospels in circulation, which adds more contradiction. The ones that made it into the Bible were decided by committee.

 

[GenMarshall]

I firmly hold that Jesus actually existed during the ancient Roman times.

 

[Rik Meleet]

I once saw a programm on Jesus on the BBC or Discovery Channel (can't remember) that pointed out that if the real Jesus knew what history made of him he'd turn over in his grave from disgust.
The show pointed out that Jesus was a Jewish freedom fighter against the roman invaders. An insurgent, if you want. He was made into a "turn the other cheek" wimp by Paulus, who was a Roman himself, to make the religion more acceptable by the powers. The original followers of Jesus were massacred and killed off, effectively killing the undesired rebelion and with it the "religion" of Jesus.

 

[C~G]

I once saw a programm on Jesus on the BBC or Discovery Channel (can't remember) that pointed out that if the real Jesus knew what history made of him he'd turn over in his grave from disgust.

Have probably seen the same show.

My thoughts were the same about him before and after the show.

He's very much the same for me as Elvis is to deaf and blind person.
All you know is the hype about him.

 

[El_Machinae]

"Many bulls surround me;
strong bulls of Bashan encircle me.
Roaring lions tearing their prey
open their mouths wide against me.
I am poured out like water,
and all my bones are out of joint.
My heart has turned to wax;
it has melted away within me.
My strength is dried up like a potsherd,
and my tongue sticks to the roof of my mouth;
you lay me in the dust of death.
Dogs have surrounded me;
a band of evil men has encircled me,
they have pierced my hands and my feet.
I can count all my bones;
people stare and gloat over me.
They divide my garments among them
and cast lots for my clothing."

This text is confusing. Did Jesus' heart turn to wax before or after he was resurrected?

 

[ComradeDavo]

Jesus did not exist. I know of no foolproof evidence that a man named Jesus who was either a)the son of god or b)a holy prophet actually existed.

A man who happened to be named Jesus and happened to be a prominent Jew does not equate to the Jesus that we are told of today.

I say to those who believe - show me evidence that isn't from a religious text! Show me evidence from the time of his supposed life!

Just because you want to believe something doens't mean it is truth.

 

[drkodos]

I have met many men named Jesus.

 

[Tycoon101]

No, Jesus was completely divine, thus he had no humanity.

J/K

It is very hard to believe that one of the world's most widely accepted religeons had no physical grounding. It is more probable that Jesus did exist, than he didn't.