Did Jesus (the man) actually exist?

Did Jesus (the man) actually exist?

  • Yes

    Votes: 128 77.6%
  • No

    Votes: 12 7.3%
  • Not sure.

    Votes: 25 15.2%

  • Total voters
    165
North King said:
Yes he did.

There's too much historical and archaeological evidence to back it up to reasonably doubt that.
There is no archeological prrof of jesus' existence, and why should there be? He was a man, a poor man who got killed. How many of them have archological prrof, I am sure that there were thousands of people killed by crucifiction, and almost none of them could be proven to have existed.
 
Dionysius said:
is there any evidence Lars Porsenna existed? not much, really.
the main reason people contest jesus`s existance is because
they/others would care if he did or did not.
poor lars, nobody gives him any attention.

Titus Livius mentions his existence in "Ab Urbe Condita".
 
Dionysius said:
Well. How many more historical references does Jesus have?

The real question is, how many more does he need? I am sure that if there were anyone else who was described a generation after his supposed life and death to have existed, that there would not be nearly as many people saying this person didn't exist. Or are we to question everyone mentioned by ancient historians?
 
what i was trying to state with that porsenna thing, is that people believe whatever they are told for someone they couldnt give a toss about, but examine everything minutely for someone they are interested in.
 
Dionysius said:
what i was trying to state with that porsenna thing, is that people believe whatever they are told for someone they couldnt give a toss about, but examine everything minutely for someone they are interested in.

If you want to be intellectually honest, you have to elaborate on the history of Porsenna.

Titus Livius' tale is that Porsenna, the king of Clusium, attacked Rome after Tarquinius Superbus, the last king of Rome, requested help after being ousted in a coup. When Porsenna arrived in Rome with his army, he was so impressed by Roman bravery that he cancelled his attack. If you believe that story, I have a bridge to sell you downtown. It's only in movies and adventure books that these kinds of things happen, not real life. In real life, if you are leading a military campaign, you don't just relent because you are impressed by your enemy.

The modern theory behind this tale is that Porsenna did indeed attack Rome c. 500 BC, and succeeded in capturing the city (some other Roman accounts mention this instead of the account by Livy), but was driven out by a native uprising. By this time, the king of Rome had been killed. It is hypothesized that the Republic was formed at this time because there were no heirs to the dead king.

So even though Porsenna is mentioned, it doesn't mean historians are bound to wholly believe everything said about him. Supposedly, there's work right now to uncover his tomb, which they figure is somewhere near Florence.
 
florentia, not florence :nono:

the tomb was razed by Sulla. one could
argue, as i am trying to, that there
is less evidence for Porsenna than jesus.
why? read post #185.
 
Dionysius said:
florentia, not florence :nono:

the tomb was razed by Sulla. one could
argue, as i am trying to, that there
is less evidence for Porsenna than jesus.
why? read post #185.

I read the post.

I liken the evidence for Jesus to be similar to the evidence for Homer. With both, there was lots of talk of the man in his time, but little substantial evidence of who the man was. Actually, there's more evidence for Homer than Jesus, because at least Homer wrote some stuff (or at least it's claimed), whereas Jesus wrote nothing of his own. When I hear stuff like this, it sounds like a legend.
 
Dionysius said:
well. how mny more historical references does jesus have?

Depends on what you accept as a historical reference. Outside of religious texts, it's decades before the man is ever mentioned. Even in religous context, none of it mentions his name for at least 15yrs...and most of it being decades older than even that.

Not one historian who was born before Jesus died ever mentions him.
 
I think shadow2k doth protest too much. Your standard, i.e. that a historian prior to Jesus' birth does not mention him is not one that holds up to many other historical figures. The only reason you push it here is you are an atheist that simply wishes to discredit Jesus and in turn christianity.

To allege that Jesus never existed is just another simple conspiracy theory, sort of a "Davinci Code" gone bad. And like that story, to say Jesus never existed, is just simple fiction.

Not too worry though. Jesus himself said in a prediction that many would deny him outright. This is just another manner of doing that.
 
Dionysius said:
in fairness, the oral stage lasted quite awhile.
in the sense that no major transcriptions of the new testament were made.
What is most likely is that after Jesus died and his followers recovered from the shock, they banded together. This core group would have been those who knew Jesus well and had spent time with him. Their personal experiences would have sustained their faith and been demonstrated to non believers some of whom would have been converted. It is likely that the first christians (apostles and other followers) would have told their personal stories of Jesus to others and spread interest in christianity that way: "I remember a day on the road to Nazereth when Jesus called me aside and told me..." or "there was the time when I got angry at Simon and Jesus looked at me and I knew I had been wrong and then he smiled and I knew forgiveness..." etc. As long as there were people who could relate first hand stories of Jesus there was no need for any written record. Written records are dry and lifeless compared to a story told by someone who was actually there. And there could easily have been several hundred followers all telling their versions of what Jesus did and meant when he spoke. Imagine how many different oral traditions there were? One family told these tales, a different family told other tales.

As the years passed and those who were eye witnesses to Jesus' life died, the christian communities had fewer and fewer story tellers. The next generation began to take over: "My mother told me of the day Jesus spoke by the Sea of Gallilee, She wept when she told me what he said. 'Blessed are the' ..."

So between 20 and 40 years after the death of Jesus literate followers would begin to collect the stories told by members of their church. These texts would have been the basis for the gospels. I'm sure many of the stories were misremembered, embellished or just plain wrong. They did the best they could in an illiterate world where written material was subject to easy destruction.

350 years after Jesus' death (the equivalent of 1650 to 2000 AD) when the church tried to agree on a cannon, they had to sort through hundreds of texts and figure out which they thought were most likely to be the most accurate and not step too far outside of the current church doctrine. They would have had to collect copies of texts used by churches all over the mediterranean world and go through them. Tough job.

Those first christians were incredible salespeople and convinced many people to convert. They did it through the one on one interaction with people. If you are a christian, most likely, you will say it was god speaking through them; if you are not a christian, you will find another reason for their ability to convert peope. But in any case convert people they did. True or not, the message they told one on one was very powerful.
 
MobBoss said:
I think shadow2k doth protest too much. Your standard, i.e. that a historian prior to Jesus' birth does not mention him is not one that holds up to many other historical figures. The only reason you push it here is you are an atheist that simply wishes to discredit Jesus and in turn christianity.

To allege that Jesus never existed is just another simple conspiracy theory, sort of a "Davinci Code" gone bad. And like that story, to say Jesus never existed, is just simple fiction.

Not too worry though. Jesus himself said in a prediction that many would deny him outright. This is just another manner of doing that.

If you'd read the entire thread, you'd have seen that I'm actually more interested in why non-religious people believe he existed. I mean, we know that 80% of the people who post here aren't followers of one of the Abrahamic faiths. So that 80% figure interests me.

Obviously you believe he was real. That's not really very interesting to me. But I'll repeat what I said earlier, I didn't see the need to exclude religious believers from the discussion, as they might have something to put forth that I wasn't aware of. And they did, I think two different people pointed out the Epistle to the Thessalonians, which is dated around 15-20yrs after his death. While still religious in nature, it definitely narrowed the timeline down for his first mention in ANY text at all, which I wasn't aware of. Even thanked them for pointing it out to me.

That type of response certainly does a lot more for the stance that he existed than tossing out conspiracy accusations at me. But, feel free to do what you want, I'm sure your style of debate will convince someone.
 
Well, I'm a pretty strong atheist, so I can tell you why I think he existed.

Mainly because I've been told for quite awhile that he existed, and there's a probable date given for his lifetime. The concept of Jesus doesn't bother me, a monk-like fellow who went around talking, so there's no reason to disbelieve his existence.

I mean, I also believe that Plato existed and Galileo existed. Heck, I'd even buy that King David was real too.

I mainly incorporate him into my world view because there's no good reason not too. As an historical fact, his existence doesn't really matter. The world acts as if he existed. And I can't figure out whether he really existed or not for at least a couple hundred years (FTL drive and "Pay Per View"!) at the MOST optimistic.

Heck, there are hosts of historical figures that we accept; and I don't know the actual evidences for them either. Torquemanda. Heck, Ghenghis Khan could have been the "Kaiser Shozeh" of his day for all I know.
 
everyone believes joseph smith existed, doesnt mean everyone is mormon.

who`s Kaiser Shozeh?
 
Jesus the man existed. He was a son of God, like all of us. He challenged the powers that be, and was killed. His followers then helped perpetrate one of the greatest and most successful hoaxes in human history.
 
shadow2k said:
But there is far more proof of Alexander's existence than has ever been shown for Jesus.
Of corse there is! Alexander was far more famous than Jesus in his time.

Jesus was only known by people in Judea and Samaria which were quite sparsely populated areas in that time. Potentionally a few hundered thousand people could have known about him, while Alexander must have been well known by many millions of people after that giant conquest campaign.

This means that if we should expect one contemporary historical record of Jesus, we should expect hundreds for Alexander, but the true number only a small fraction of that.

Besides, all the contemporary historians who wrote about Alexander appears to have been close friends with him. And how many of Jesus close friends where historians, or even litterate? Most likely none!

What you expect is apparently that some neutral historians or some enemies of Jesus should have written about him. But how can you expect that when even Alexander the Great doesn’t have any neutral or enemy historians who have written about him?

You have unreasonable expectations!
 
Kaiser Shozeh was a character from the excellent movie "The Usual Suspects". There was a suspicion from the movie that he wasn't really a single man, but a name that people took on for certain occassions to cause fear.

Similar to the Dread Pirate Roberts of Princess Bride fame. A name to inspire fear.

The Mongol hordes could have had something similar, for certain, for all I know.
 
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