Did You Know That America is to Blame for Pearl Harbor? Me Neither.

[BuckyRea]

Here's what's my problem with this: Most history textbooks in school tend to make American history nothing but negative after negative: Imperialistic White men killing indians, Revolution, Rich slave owning wig wearing White men write a constitution that is now outmoded, Slavery, Civil War, Greedy businessmen crushing the poor Government and Unions save the poor, WWI, Roaring Twenties, Great Depression and FDR and the New Deal saves the country, WWII and the Japanese internment camps, the red scare paranoia(McCarthyism), Then the country was saved by the New Left Movement and the hippies were just expressing themselves (Just like Crazy Charley Manson), Vietnam, Nixon and Watergate, and the Fascist Warmongering Idiot Reagan, Clinton, Stupid Warmongering Bush, and finally the greatest president of time OBAMA. So you can understand I don't like it when a group of revisionists attack the worst attack on American soil (before 9/11) and insulting military. Also it seems that the people that do these Textbooks agrees with them. Also they want to turn the Arizona Memorial in to a memorial for both Japanese and American deaths. Now remember this is the country that now Santa Claus can't say Ho Ho Ho because it's not Politically Correct. So...

I teach history with actual American history textbooks. What you are saying is simply not true.

We have several official state-authorized textbooks. On the whole, they give a round, objective presentation of major events of American history. When Americans have done bad things, they present the facts; when Americans have done great things, they present the facts.

To the extent there is any bias, I've found from looking at a variety of textbooks, that unpleasant events tend to be omitted (for instance there's no mention of military atrocities against Filipino civilian populations in the Philippine Insurrection at the turn of the century, nor any mention of municipal government complicity in the bootlegging operations run by the Mafia during Prohibition).

I have to wonder where you got the entirely inaccurate idea that US History textbooks focus on "nothing but negative" parts of US history. Someone deliberately lied to you when they told you that and you chose to believe their dishonest version of the truth without questioning it.

If you can point to a single approved history textbook that calls Obama the greatest president of all time, I'll mail you a twenty dollar bill. If you find the very mention of bad things done by Americans to be evidence of a negative bias, I strongly suggest you stay away from history books, and from the news, and from the window.

 

[Ataxerxes]

I teach history with actual American history textbooks. What you are saying is simply not true.

We have several official state-authorized textbooks. On the whole, they give a round, objective presentation of major events of American history. When Americans have done bad things, they present the facts; when Americans have done great things, they present the facts.

To the extent there is any bias, I've found from looking at a variety of textbooks, that unpleasant events tend to be omitted (for instance there's no mention of military atrocities against Filipino civilian populations in the Philippine Insurrection at the turn of the century, nor any mention of municipal government complicity in the bootlegging operations run by the Mafia during Prohibition).

I have to wonder where you got the entirely inaccurate idea that US History textbooks focus on "nothing but negative" parts of US history. Someone deliberately lied to you when they told you that and you chose to believe their dishonest version of the truth without questioning it.

If you can point to a single approved history textbook that calls Obama the greatest president of all time, I'll mail you a twenty dollar bill. If you find the very mention of bad things done by Americans to be evidence of a negative bias, I strongly suggest you stay away from history books, and from the news, and from the window.

More than the textbooks, I've found a lot of the history professors (at least in high school) tend to stress either the negative parts of the U.S. in history or try to make the U.S. appear wonderful. You sound like you teach a balanced approach, which is good. A lot of my professors weren't so balanced.

Looking at the history leading up to Pearl Harbor, I always have a feeling of inevitability by watching the situation deteriorate, bit by bit. Almost every action by both sides just pushed the conflict a little closer.

 

[Karalysia]

please delete

 

[.Shane.]

Moderator Action: If there isn't going to be any historical discussion of the historical claims referred to in the OP (and helpfully given sources by subsequent posters - please, if you're going to start a thread about some claims, give a source for them) then I'll have to close it.

edit: (paraphrase) It got better... kinda

If anyone pays attention the source is not really CNN, but CNN iReports, which is essentially, random people posting whatever they liked. Its hardly a legit news source.

FWIW

So, I'm still voting that the OP is manufactured outrage. Its like linking to any random idiots blog and getting all worked up over it. I think OP post #39 demonstrates the real purpose. Essentially, the thread is to espouse a talking point about the liberal evil education system. So, to get the talking point launched he latched onto, essentially, a pseudo news report.

 

[LiquidCommander]

What next: The Polish are to be blamed for Germany's invasion of their country!?!

September 2, 1939 headlines: "Hitler Neutralizes Polish Menace: Europe relieved as Germans Lift Grim Specter of Polish Tyranny from Continent"

 

[Dachs]

Looking at the history leading up to Pearl Harbor, I always have a feeling of inevitability by watching the situation deteriorate, bit by bit. Almost every action by both sides just pushed the conflict a little closer.

People think that way about the July Crisis, too. And the fall of the Roman Empire. Hindsight is an interesting thing.

 

[Ajidica]

And the French Revolution. It just got worse, and worse, and worse, then better, then worse, then Napoleon.

 

[LiquidCommander]

And the French Revolution. It just got worse, and worse, and worse, then better, then worse, then Napoleon.

And as we all know, Napoleon the bloodthirsty, war-loving tyrant just started attacking in all directions simultaneously for more power and glory and fame and was single-handedly responsible for the upheavals of the Napoleonic era

But I digress, I won't derail the thread. I read through the article B-29 provided. They got brasses to post something completely unconventional like that. By far the biggest one that irks me is "The U.S. military has repeatedly committed rapes and other violent crimes throughout its past through the present day." So you expect every single military to have ever existed to never get out of hand? Gee, it's almost as if the US military personnel were angry against the Japanese or, worse yet, fighting a vicious war with them! I suppose the Rape of Nanking was the Japanese defending themselves against the Chinese aggressor, or the brutal oppression of the Koreans. No, clearly Japan annexed Korea out of self-defense.

The other big one: "Veterans' memories of their own experiences in the war are suspect and influenced by media and their own self-delusion"

Because some armchair "scholar" knows more about the fighting against the Japanese firsthand then the men who fought there sixty years ago.

 

[Traitorfish]

And as we all know, Napoleon the bloodthirsty, war-loving tyrant just started attacking in all directions simultaneously for more power and glory and fame and was single-handedly responsible for the upheavals of the Napoleonic era

I was under the impression that the ambiguities of Napoleon's reign were implicit in his use of "Napoleon", rather than "better" or "worse".

But I digress, I won't derail the thread. I read through the article B-29 provided. They got brasses to post something completely unconventional like that. By far the biggest one that irks me is "The U.S. military has repeatedly committed rapes and other violent crimes throughout its past through the present day." So you expect every single military to have ever existed to never get out of hand? Gee, it's almost as if the US military personnel were angry against the Japanese or, worse yet, fighting a vicious war with them! I suppose the Rape of Nanking was the Japanese defending themselves against the Chinese aggressor, or the brutal oppression of the Koreans. No, clearly Japan annexed Korea out of self-defense.

The other big one: "Veterans' memories of their own experiences in the war are suspect and influenced by media and their own self-delusion"

Because some armchair "scholar" knows more about the fighting against the Japanese firsthand then the men who fought there sixty years ago.

If you'd read the entire thread, you'd know that the original article was written not as in advocacy of the points contained within, but as a summary of a conference by a right-wing observer. Scepticism is well warranted.

 

[LiquidCommander]

I was under the impression that the ambiguities of Napoleon's reign were implicit in his use of "Napoleon", rather than "better" or "worse".

In my experience, when one uses the word "Napoleon" to describe periods of time it's synonymous with an era of bloodshed and warfare single-handedly caused by a single man. But then the key phrase here is "in my experience", so you have a good point.

If you'd read the entire thread, you'd know that the original article was written not as in advocacy of the points contained within, but as a summary of a conference by a right-wing observer. Scepticism is well warranted.

I should have elucidated; what I meant by them having the brasses to "post" those ideas was the original developers of the ideas themselves, not the observer or the poster of that specific article.

 

[Traitorfish]

I should have elucidated; what I meant by them having the brasses to "post" those ideas was the original developers of the ideas themselves, not the observer or the poster of that specific article.

But, again, we do not know the extent to which the report represent an accurate description of the ideas in question. For example, I do not think that a truly biased report would present the points in question with the same implicit sneer or viciousness of tone that the writer has chose; to me, that seems to indicate a writer in pursuit of a specific emotional reaction.

 

[ParkCungHee]

People think that way about the July Crisis, too. And the fall of the Roman Empire. Hindsight is an interesting thing.

This one has legs.
Of course, it's more "Inevitable in the preceeding months" but still.

 

[Dachs]

And the French Revolution. It just got worse, and worse, and worse, then better, then worse, then Napoleon.

Missed the point. And then, somehow, went all the way around the world and hit it from behind.

This one has legs.
Of course, it's more "Inevitable in the preceeding months" but still.

Perhaps.

"Do you hear that, Emperor Anthemius? That is the sound of inevitability...it is the sound of your death. Goodbye, Emperor."

 

[Xeus]

"Do you hear that, Emperor Anthemius? That is the sound of inevitability...it is the sound of your death. Goodbye, Emperor."

Love it. Paraphrased from Matrix? Or actual. Source?

 

[BuckyRea]

I don't think all history is inevitable. But WW1 and the WW2 clash between Japan and the US in the Pacific both probably were

 

[Dachs]

Love it. Paraphrased from Matrix? Or actual. Source?

Paraphrased from The Matrix, yeah.

 

[r16]

the ease the Japanese arrived at Pearl Harbour has always seen by many as proof that some Americans certainly knew there was to be a day of infamy .

this strayal from the general flow of the topic is -maybe- justified by the Bruckheimer Pearl Harbour ı saw on TV last night .

the reason for studying history , at least for some , is to draw lessons to ease the future and apparently pre-Pearl debates have been well studied . Pyonyang more or less is the militaristic Japan . Seul unfortunately plays "Şankayşek" , America is funnily once again the America . South Koreans try to make it cheaper , it being the integration of North to the world ; just like Chiang ignored the simple fact that defeating Japanese might have united the country behind him . But then watching the Japanese and the Reds attrite each other to death must have seemed brilliant and obviously cheaper ...

return of the American Right to decision making is eagerly expected on the Korean Peninsula , at least on one side of the DMZ . Spoiler in the first post , number 8 , Asians really think stuff like that . Apparently . North has already shown its new enrichment facility , with pride . Americans didn't actually need much prodding to remember S. Koreans arranged their 747 to overfly Russian territory with an US Senator or Congressman onboard , hence they declined to be present on the day of fighting , since there was expectation of fighting . Now Seul is saying it can too play the missile diplomacy . Why , everybody likes Boomer . Americans would "actually" love a South Korean deterrent to scare Beijing as peer competitors don't give much hoot to Uncle Sam these days . ( Though for the benefit of the South Korean president , American dereliction of duty is more relevant to economy and certain feeling of doom about the swing the American foreign policy is bound to take within a year or two , rather than airliner contrails . They just didn't fall in love with certain Asians ) One huge advantage of democracy over dictatorial regimes is that the tops are allowed to give up , resign or quit without much fuss and the attendant laughter behind one's back definitely has the opportunity to die in the remaining lifespan . As it tends to measured in years rather than days or hours .

 

[r16]

been told to tone it down . There is a mistaken assumption that North is accepted as a nuke power hence Korea as the single guaranteed entity must be too , as can be ascertained from the 9 times rejection of China losing the said inventory , since 1993 . Logically it will be more Southern as well , though the others are not "capable" of competing , it would be grossly unfair to have them having their bodies or souls , according to gender , as sole assets. Been allowed one single personal opinion . As already signed method would be too soon , too far ı personally venture maybe some Chinese enterprises might be good for skills transfer .

returning to cherished poke the Yank game , which is rather free , this guy better known as W once went on public TV telling that "We and our enemies are doing our best to destroy the United States " or likewise without blinking an eye . Among the listeners was the Chief of Staff of American armed forces , in USAF Blue and he was stressed as the camera panned on the audience who played as if it was just Dabya . And the whole world understood American soft power would be liquidated , the planet to be ruled with the iron fist . The American perception of the whole arrayed against 'em is a result of the attitude . If it falls to hard power alone , well ... Americans , God bless them , are not that scary . Though the ride was and is good , there are huge unknowns and even Chine the likely hegemon like no one has seen before treads lightly ( albeit the notion being rejected 1421ish , and seems to be quite a joke in these forums ) . This is why of the yet undeserved Nobel Peace Prize . Though any American is free to attribute it to unmatched diplomatic prowess .

for me Boomer has name , graceful too ...

would have stopped here , but ı saw on the papers today Sarah Palin offering support to the Allies , namely North Koreans . Highly political it would be charge her with sloppiness , an insult to human intelligence to think American Right produces only dimwits , a clear sign that we mere mortals lack the vision for Realpolitik , conspitorial to suggest certain Americans desire a Communist country to rail against and preferably one that doesn't told a trillion dollars worth of US bonds . But then it would be merely the appetizer for the r16 , the harbinger of rant scale nonsense , and ı have been advised to tone up a little , the April Fools Day Manifesto was just a rhetorical device , nothing in it compelling enough for any part of Korea to get involved and just naturally nobody do actually care for the grunts of any stripes , except maybe those who sent them in and obviously the loved and loving ones who bury the fallen .

wars are inevitable at times , but equally they are avoidable . Only if one accepts there are no guarantees that one will not be outplanned by the always despised enemy . WW1 , too could have been avoided , if Ottomans were allowed a breathing space to bring the oil online . Would have been fighting terrible COIN wars all along , but when one believes in own unfallibility and brilliance , exasperation at failure imminent or otherwise , of long planned actions makes one extra arrogant and extra blind . Yeah , the West struck the Ottomans down . Good for them .

 

[Karalysia]

please delete

 

[Plotinus]

Moderator Action: WWI discussion split off to here. And since the on-topic discussion has degenerated further into incomprehensibility, thread closed.