Moderator Action: Please don't bring chat or chat posts into this thread. They are not part of cfc and generally only useful to troll or flame others. Thanks.
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Discussion on Potential NES and IOT Forum Merger
- Thread starter BSmith1068
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Luckymoose
The World is Mine
Only it is relevant when it is used to influence community disunion towards the words of a noted friend of the moderation staff.
Moderator Action: Infracted - blatant PDMA.
Please read the forum rules: http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=422889
"Nuka hates this community so much that he spends 9 years here to just make fun of us."
I do admit I want Luckymoose banned though, and he has advocated similar sentiments against me. We do not like eachother
Moderator Action: Infracted for flaming. Please keep it civil.
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I am a friend of the merger, and am generally on ambivalent on the persons on staff
KaiserElectric
Total Freakin Besties
- Joined
- Dec 2, 2007
- Messages
- 3,461
Why does this need to get so personal? I see no reason for the actions of any user in either forum to be brought up in this discussion.
I think you are wrong Lucky. What people say elsewhere is what they say elsewhere under different circumstances and in a different context. Bringing unattractive or damaging quotes from other forums only feeds incivility and adds to any existing unpleasantness. The very nature of chat and what people say there is different from the rules we impose here. We generally allow quoting here because everyone can see the entire context of a quote and how a conversation progressed and because we are stricter here about what folks can post, we know that they mostly will follow our rules for content. When you grab snippets from chat to make someone look bad, stupid, or hateful, it is very inappropriate. IIRC we went through this in NESing a while back. It is no more appropriate here and now.
What you say in chat is your business and we don't care over here even if contradicts what you say here. The same applies to Nuke. Let's not go down that path, please.
There are a few who are outright opposed, but alright. We can go with those who are OK with merging with or without a constitution and those who are OK with merging only with a constitution detailing significant changes to site administration policies?
Thlayli
Le Pétit Prince
It's a difficult forum to live in when explaining the facts is a violation of the forum rules.
Oh well, since the moderators have started to turn from discussion to suppression, it doesn't seem like there's much more that can be done here. But I would like to say a few words.
Moderator Action: Infracted for PDMA, astonishingly enough.
Please read the forum rules: http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=422889
All of you who have advocated for doing the right thing by the forum, pro-merge or anti-merge, I am so proud of all your efforts. I know this is a long and painful slog, and it often seems pointless and frivolous to be arguing all day to no end. But I have only grown in admiration of the IOTers I have met through this process. Reaching out and forming bonds with their community in order to coordinate our efforts moving forward has been the greatest result of this week.
Mosher, Tyo, SK, Polyblank, Bair, westindiaman, Megs, TerranEmperor with his highly mature apology, even Tolni with his skepticism of my reform efforts, all of you have repeatedly impressed me with your care for CFC and for our Forum Games community. If we are ultimately merged into one forum, I'll be proud to call you fellow members and friends as well. Thank you for working with me, and I hope we will continue to work together going forward.
I know we can build a fairer forum. Do not be afraid, for one day, the torch of leadership will pass to one of you. And I will be proud to see that day. In the end, we play games, we write stories, we update our stats, and we move our pieces and our colors on the map. But the most important narrative is that of our friendship. The one I have had with NESers has lasted me a decade, and I look forward to new ones with many of you going forward.
Never give up hope that CFC can be free, fair, and democratic. We will look to that ideal and work towards it in the future. Even if the door is closed to us today, it will not always be closed.
EDIT: Oh, and happy 10,000th post. I'd like to dedicate it to the end of PDMA and the right for communities to choose their own moderators. Thanks guys, I love you all.
Oh well, since the moderators have started to turn from discussion to suppression, it doesn't seem like there's much more that can be done here. But I would like to say a few words.
Moderator Action: Infracted for PDMA, astonishingly enough.
Please read the forum rules: http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=422889
All of you who have advocated for doing the right thing by the forum, pro-merge or anti-merge, I am so proud of all your efforts. I know this is a long and painful slog, and it often seems pointless and frivolous to be arguing all day to no end. But I have only grown in admiration of the IOTers I have met through this process. Reaching out and forming bonds with their community in order to coordinate our efforts moving forward has been the greatest result of this week.
Mosher, Tyo, SK, Polyblank, Bair, westindiaman, Megs, TerranEmperor with his highly mature apology, even Tolni with his skepticism of my reform efforts, all of you have repeatedly impressed me with your care for CFC and for our Forum Games community. If we are ultimately merged into one forum, I'll be proud to call you fellow members and friends as well. Thank you for working with me, and I hope we will continue to work together going forward.
I know we can build a fairer forum. Do not be afraid, for one day, the torch of leadership will pass to one of you. And I will be proud to see that day. In the end, we play games, we write stories, we update our stats, and we move our pieces and our colors on the map. But the most important narrative is that of our friendship. The one I have had with NESers has lasted me a decade, and I look forward to new ones with many of you going forward.
Never give up hope that CFC can be free, fair, and democratic. We will look to that ideal and work towards it in the future. Even if the door is closed to us today, it will not always be closed.
EDIT: Oh, and happy 10,000th post. I'd like to dedicate it to the end of PDMA and the right for communities to choose their own moderators. Thanks guys, I love you all.
erez87
Lord of Random
- Joined
- May 16, 2002
- Messages
- 13,500
Nuke. I'm opposed to the merger and I have nothing to do with the Frontier.
@erez87, I did indicate that there are those who are opposed outright, but fair point! I would ask that you remember our fun times as the HRE in SK's NES and ran similar to what can be found in the IOT forum. Considering right now that you are playing in few (if any) neses at the moment, I would think that you would welcome the chance to see some new games to play in that you would enjoy. History of the forum is great for nostalgia, but we need to keep the hobby moving forward I think. (Please let me know if I'm misrepresenting your argument)
Civ'ed
I ain't gotta explain a thing
I, Civ'ed, agree to nuka's proposal.
gay_Aleks
from the river to the sea, Palestine will be free!
I just find the notion of "democracy" and "rights" in an Internet forum very strange. Fairness, yes. Rights? Less so.
Civ'ed
I ain't gotta explain a thing
Ok, so, right now, way I see it:
The majority of people involved in the discussion are not strictly and totally opposed to the idea of a merger. (Basing this off comments by both sides).
The main issues, then, are:
The majority of people involved in the discussion are not strictly and totally opposed to the idea of a merger. (Basing this off comments by both sides).
The main issues, then, are:
- There is no real positive to the merger
- Some people involved in both sides are causing friction that makes it hard to find common ground
Luckymoose
The World is Mine
I don't think you comprehend what is actually happening here, or what the two sides are saying. I know you're vying for a position as a moderator, but no one will ever put you in that position. Everyone knows and has discussed this behavior, and no one will put up with. You're falsifying information to cause friction and disunity within the communities in order to support a view of the two subforums that no one else holds. Merger is not the problem. Never has been. The way it is being handled is. You have not addressed those concerns. In fact, you have ignored them with your proposals and statements on the future of the hobby. A future that you alone support without the consent or consultation of your peers on the side you so quickly seek to undermine.
You assume because a NES and an IOT are similar that all are. What everyone has said is our two communities are unique, if similar, and neither side should be forced under the control or manipulation of the other. Neither community has the right to dictate to the other. Even if we are in a single subforum, our uniqueness and independence should be preserved so that neither community has authority over the other. Thus if one community pushed for changes the other disapproved of they could not enforce it based on numbers alone, and vice versa. I have no right to dictate to IOTers what they want done in their games/stickies/rules, etc. and they have no right to do the same to me. The only way it'll work is if both parties have security within the merger. Throwing groups together without a plan and with no structure for how to save the smaller side is nothing but a ridiculous move.
And your efforts to segregate Frontier games from CFC games will never work. You are not allowed to cut the tether that holds these two communities together simply because it benefits your current status on CFC. That goes for everyone. It is not in the spirit of community to do this. And it is one of the most destructive things our hobby has faced during this entire debate.
From other thread. Brought it here to stay on topic:
Nothing is hindering either side from playing games except their own views on what makes a game fun. A merger won't suddenly change the players to thinking a certain type of game is their cup of tea. That's not how human beings work. There is no tribalism barring players from IOT or NES from mingling, that's just silly. You're two clicks from our subforum. If someone wants to play an IOT it is trivial to get to your subforum.
What I don't appreciate is the language about forcing unity and ending divisions in cultures. That's some dark stuff, man. I don't know where you got the idea that this sort of language is acceptable, but it is not. That is a terrifying line of thinking and I hope no one else here agrees with you.
Positives to the merger as I can think of them:
+Improvements to the quality of players in the games, and the quality of games being played. Some Nesers complain they don't think IOTers appreciate the quality of the games, but what better way than actively engage new people in the type of games we want run? Few Nesers start out as "Elite". If you want a massive influx of new players as many of us claim we do, IOTers are the perfect people to introduce to our games (not saying that IOTers should conform to the NESer style, but rather that they can play both IOT and NES style)
+Encourages a further "breaking" of borders. We are losing the distinction between someone who is an IOTer and someone who is a NESer. Let's fully break it down and create a larger, more united community. No longer will we just play games because they're labeled "NES" or "IOT", and no longer will there be a stigma attacked to being from one community or another. Let's go forward together as one forum.
+More players coming into games can encourage mods to continiue running their games, and gives hope to prospective mods that they could have a large turn out. Many (not all) mods do not want to run a game if they're only going to see 5-10 people show up, and will be more likely lose their enthusiasm, while someone modding a game of 20+ people is going to be alot more excited about the game (EQ if you have statistics on this regard I'd be interested in it).
+Possibility of new friendships. Furthering from the breaking down of borders earlier. Already, myself, EQandcivfanatic, Thlayli, and Luckymoose have been showing up in #neschat, and from what I've seen so far, we've all enjoyed talking with the members there. There are few, if any, irreconcilable differences between the communities, and if we communicate as equal communities, then I do think we will have a wider, friendlier community.
+More "clout" for the community as a whole. Nesing has alot of pull and independence in the CFC community, due to our large community base and constant posting. If IOT wants to be a part of that clout, we should be welcoming them with open arms. A larger, more united community is going to be in the best interests for us as a whole, and will pay dividends in the form of our larger communal family being heard on a larger scale than it has before.
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These are at the top of my head, and I'm sure I or others can think of other points. I do think the majority of the community is in favor of it, but we are getting tripped on over details, and hostility from a small minority which is trying to poison the goodwill carried by the majority.
If Azale is correct and no one (or few) is "anti-merger", then we should be pushing for a merger as the first concern, and we should not be tripped over a few details. What threads should be stickied, what to call our Off Topic thread, who should be our mod are incredibly minute issues. There are those who are trying to make the merger conditional of wider administration changes, and that is NOT the issue we are fighting for today. The only thing we should be concerned about (for this thread) is "Will NES and IOT merging be good or bad for the communities", and I think it's overwhelmingly in the "Good" column.
If you continue to wish for administration change, fine, but that should not be tied to the merger. I personally do not think that Mods are what will kill our hobby (the entire Amon incident was in our OT thread, not in a NES). I think democratic elections for mods will not be what saves our hobby. Thlayli or Thomas or NK or Azale or whoever's name turning green on here will not solve our problems. What MIGHT solve our problems though is the merging of two bastions of game creation and creativity into one Forum.
Perhaps today they might not play the style of game you personally enjoy. But if you make your own game one day, be it a Story game or a Simulation, you will certainly find many more people willing to give it a try, and one day, they may run a game that fits perfectly with what you want to play.
And to me, that is what's going to help this Forum. That is the upside, and that is what I think will make the merger worth it.
+Improvements to the quality of players in the games, and the quality of games being played. Some Nesers complain they don't think IOTers appreciate the quality of the games, but what better way than actively engage new people in the type of games we want run? Few Nesers start out as "Elite". If you want a massive influx of new players as many of us claim we do, IOTers are the perfect people to introduce to our games (not saying that IOTers should conform to the NESer style, but rather that they can play both IOT and NES style)
+Encourages a further "breaking" of borders. We are losing the distinction between someone who is an IOTer and someone who is a NESer. Let's fully break it down and create a larger, more united community. No longer will we just play games because they're labeled "NES" or "IOT", and no longer will there be a stigma attacked to being from one community or another. Let's go forward together as one forum.
+More players coming into games can encourage mods to continiue running their games, and gives hope to prospective mods that they could have a large turn out. Many (not all) mods do not want to run a game if they're only going to see 5-10 people show up, and will be more likely lose their enthusiasm, while someone modding a game of 20+ people is going to be alot more excited about the game (EQ if you have statistics on this regard I'd be interested in it).
+Possibility of new friendships. Furthering from the breaking down of borders earlier. Already, myself, EQandcivfanatic, Thlayli, and Luckymoose have been showing up in #neschat, and from what I've seen so far, we've all enjoyed talking with the members there. There are few, if any, irreconcilable differences between the communities, and if we communicate as equal communities, then I do think we will have a wider, friendlier community.
+More "clout" for the community as a whole. Nesing has alot of pull and independence in the CFC community, due to our large community base and constant posting. If IOT wants to be a part of that clout, we should be welcoming them with open arms. A larger, more united community is going to be in the best interests for us as a whole, and will pay dividends in the form of our larger communal family being heard on a larger scale than it has before.
---------
These are at the top of my head, and I'm sure I or others can think of other points. I do think the majority of the community is in favor of it, but we are getting tripped on over details, and hostility from a small minority which is trying to poison the goodwill carried by the majority.
If Azale is correct and no one (or few) is "anti-merger", then we should be pushing for a merger as the first concern, and we should not be tripped over a few details. What threads should be stickied, what to call our Off Topic thread, who should be our mod are incredibly minute issues. There are those who are trying to make the merger conditional of wider administration changes, and that is NOT the issue we are fighting for today. The only thing we should be concerned about (for this thread) is "Will NES and IOT merging be good or bad for the communities", and I think it's overwhelmingly in the "Good" column.
If you continue to wish for administration change, fine, but that should not be tied to the merger. I personally do not think that Mods are what will kill our hobby (the entire Amon incident was in our OT thread, not in a NES). I think democratic elections for mods will not be what saves our hobby. Thlayli or Thomas or NK or Azale or whoever's name turning green on here will not solve our problems. What MIGHT solve our problems though is the merging of two bastions of game creation and creativity into one Forum.
Perhaps today they might not play the style of game you personally enjoy. But if you make your own game one day, be it a Story game or a Simulation, you will certainly find many more people willing to give it a try, and one day, they may run a game that fits perfectly with what you want to play.
And to me, that is what's going to help this Forum. That is the upside, and that is what I think will make the merger worth it.
I am NOT campaigning to be a moderator (except on IOT chat), and I think I'd be firmly rejected by all parties. Nor do I have "status" on CFC. I ask, what information am I "falsifying"?
Also, who gives a care about what threads are "Stickied". They're the same! We have our maps, we have our rules for inclusivity, our chatroom? A thread for developing new games? THE HORROR! The entire point of the merger is that we blend into one community, not keep bringing back inane differences from the past. Moving forward we should work to integrate the communities, not try to keep them separate.
And hey man, you left CFC. It's great you want to come back, but let's try to make this a constructive comeback. It would be ridiculous to come back here, destroy an attempt at a merge, and then leave. Luckymoose, you and I need to put aside our own personal differences for the betterment of the communities involved.
Luckymoose
The World is Mine
There is no guarantee that players from IOT or NES will cross over into other games. Those who already do so will continue, but it is unlikely to be a massive shift, and even then new people doesn't mean the same thing as an increase in quality. We never said we want a massive influx of new players. We want a massive influx of hardworking and quality players. There are some good IOTers who already crossed over, but that doesn't mean the rest of them will. Same goes for NESers.
That's not going to matter unless you erase differences in style. Is TNES suddenly an IOT because of a merger? No. It has a different feel to it, different requirements and styles. It isn't like an IOTer will suddenly be shocked with revelation that NESes exist and join every game they can.
This is not how mods work. More players doesn't suddenly make a game more fun to run for the mod. Maybe for EQ, but certainly not for others. A lot of mods set player caps for this reason.
There was never the last of possibility in this, nor will it suddenly make certain members of either side make out on the hood of a car.
This point is an obvious misfire considering recent crackdowns on NESing. We don't have any power, and merging won't give us more of it.
Ailedhoo
wonderer
- Joined
- Mar 19, 2012
- Messages
- 7,811
It would be strategic error if the merge somehow "broke" CFC from Frontier; in notions there is nothing they are going to be able to do to enforce such a "segregation." What can happen though is that we should establish a embassy as such for the Frontier on CFC (maybe in the merged thread...) and the same for CFC on Frontier (STG as cradle for this?).
As for tribalism: what of a figure who proclaimed "IOTs are less advance" and those who present the other house as a hive mind? The unity will protect those of mixed gaming notions. As for "dark stuff..." your judging me about the policy I purpose on a forum? That my forum policy ideas reflect real ideas of the real world? Keep in mind we are not talking of nationalities here but forum cultures; take it as serious as you want but I am doing is removing the idols of zealotry and allowing players their chance to have fun.
To quote Immaculate's talk to you on the Frontier:
Take a walk my child; realize that your opposing regulations for a game forum, not new laws for a nation.
As for tribalism: what of a figure who proclaimed "IOTs are less advance" and those who present the other house as a hive mind? The unity will protect those of mixed gaming notions. As for "dark stuff..." your judging me about the policy I purpose on a forum? That my forum policy ideas reflect real ideas of the real world? Keep in mind we are not talking of nationalities here but forum cultures; take it as serious as you want but I am doing is removing the idols of zealotry and allowing players their chance to have fun.
To quote Immaculate's talk to you on the Frontier:
Immaculate said:
Take a walk my child; realize that your opposing regulations for a game forum, not new laws for a nation.
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