Discussion on Potential NES and IOT Forum Merger
- Thread starter BSmith1068
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You know, I don't really care about the merger. It won't mean a huge difference, to be honest. My only concern is that I might be exposed to IOT-related drama. Those IOTers I've talked to have been quite upfront that there are flare-ups from time-to-time. But w/e. NESing has it's own share. I should also note that there aren't a huge number of reasons for the change but that the most vocal voices against it... have history with the idea.
More broadly, all that really needs to be "fixed" is the moderation issue and that can mostly be addressed by ensuring that there are 'good' moderators in place. Good defined as being acceptable to the community; making decent calls; leaving things alone until they need fixing; and not a great deal more. Honestly, I don't think NES was that hard to moderate. Given its traffic (which was intense admittely rather than broad), it's probably only required moderation in a serious fashion 3-4 times in the 7 or so years I've been there. PMDA is a side issue that's only blown up because of a lack of 'good' moderators.
This will of course promptly be ignored, because nobody ever really reads what I have to say, but having good moderators is worth rather a great more than adopting an approach that's never going to fly with staff.
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@TK: Hoof bump.
More broadly, all that really needs to be "fixed" is the moderation issue and that can mostly be addressed by ensuring that there are 'good' moderators in place. Good defined as being acceptable to the community; making decent calls; leaving things alone until they need fixing; and not a great deal more. Honestly, I don't think NES was that hard to moderate. Given its traffic (which was intense admittely rather than broad), it's probably only required moderation in a serious fashion 3-4 times in the 7 or so years I've been there. PMDA is a side issue that's only blown up because of a lack of 'good' moderators.
This will of course promptly be ignored, because nobody ever really reads what I have to say, but having good moderators is worth rather a great more than adopting an approach that's never going to fly with staff.
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@TK: Hoof bump.
Luckymoose
The World is Mine
I've been a member of NESing three times longer than you've been on this forum, so when you propose massive changes to that community which include forcing unity and punishing dissenters and ending cultures it really irks me. You don't have the right to say you can kill NESing culture to support your merger vision. And this is a serious to a lot of us. It might not be to you, but you haven't put in nearly as much to this hobby as we have.
Supporting genocide and authoritarian rules is never a good or healthy thing, even if it is only on forum.
Moderator Action: Is it really too much to expect everyone to discuss the proposed reorganisation of some threads on a gaming forum without flaming and trolling each other, throwing around accusations of genocide(!), and breaking every site rule we have?
Please - calm down. If you can't post civilly, don't post. If you want to discuss what goes on in other forums, do it there. If you want to discuss other matters entirely, don't do it here.
Please read the forum rules: http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=422889
Please - calm down. If you can't post civilly, don't post. If you want to discuss what goes on in other forums, do it there. If you want to discuss other matters entirely, don't do it here.
Please read the forum rules: http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=422889
erez87
Lord of Random
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Plotinus! But the lolz! Have you not laughed at the language being used here?
Anyway, back on track.
I said what I thought on the merge. There are very few NESes, and many IOT's. the NESes will be lost among the IOT's, and NESing, I think, will be lost with them. I hope to be proven wrong.
Anyway, back on track.
I'm not sure it was so similar to IOT like you claim it was. The IOT's I looked at mostly looked like "choose territories on the map to color" and not like "play a medieval state in a world separated by religion". I may be wrong on this (I probably am!), of course, but that is what I saw. And I am recently in one NES, LifeNES. New players are always welcome, but no one should be forced to join the NES community by a merge, nor should the opposite happen.
I said what I thought on the merge. There are very few NESes, and many IOT's. the NESes will be lost among the IOT's, and NESing, I think, will be lost with them. I hope to be proven wrong.
hoplitejoe
Top fun-poster
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now i know how living in the USSR felt ;__;
lolz guys its only a gaming forum! hahahah
yea, quick way to make everyone feel like you're looking down and them. how about the people who have sunk thousands and thousands of hours and posts into your stupid little gaming forum?
it's another bludgeon to make people shut up and one I am particularly tired of, since it sure as hell doesnt lead to YOU GUYS (the moderators and iot pariahs) taking this stuff any less seriously. Hey, if the forum is no big deal why dont you mod it like a bunch of adults instead of like a bunch of keyboard illuminati?
plotinus, you're a big serious historian. how do you feel when people tell you you're whole profession or what you enjoy (at times obscure history on christian theology, of which I've read three of your books on) is silly and stupid and "not important"?
you aint above us, just remember that. you're one of us, you took this job so you could handle internet serious business stuff. you're not going to convince ANYONE who cares that it ISNT serious business, so trying to pull that card has only two goals
1. let the people who agree feel good about themselves and get in a few one-liners (see hoplitejoe's useful as usual comments)
2. try to make everyone pushing for something they see as important feel stupid
great modding all around pdma 10 points to gryffindor banned for all time a million years dungeon
yea, quick way to make everyone feel like you're looking down and them. how about the people who have sunk thousands and thousands of hours and posts into your stupid little gaming forum?
it's another bludgeon to make people shut up and one I am particularly tired of, since it sure as hell doesnt lead to YOU GUYS (the moderators and iot pariahs) taking this stuff any less seriously. Hey, if the forum is no big deal why dont you mod it like a bunch of adults instead of like a bunch of keyboard illuminati?
plotinus, you're a big serious historian. how do you feel when people tell you you're whole profession or what you enjoy (at times obscure history on christian theology, of which I've read three of your books on) is silly and stupid and "not important"?
you aint above us, just remember that. you're one of us, you took this job so you could handle internet serious business stuff. you're not going to convince ANYONE who cares that it ISNT serious business, so trying to pull that card has only two goals
1. let the people who agree feel good about themselves and get in a few one-liners (see hoplitejoe's useful as usual comments)
2. try to make everyone pushing for something they see as important feel stupid
great modding all around pdma 10 points to gryffindor banned for all time a million years dungeon
Azale, I don't intend to put down the hobby. I've been very impressed by the games/stories I've read and I recognise the importance that the players/writers rightly attach both to what they've produced and the friendships they've made in doing so. And the people putting down other people's games, whether it's NESers criticising IOTers or vice versa or anything else, are utterly out of line. I absolutely agree with you on that, and the dismissive attitude I've seen here and elsewhere by some people towards others' preferences is both unpleasant and unhelpful to the issue.
What I'm saying is that the dismissive attitudes, the vitriol, the flaming and trolling, and the ridiculously over-the-top language are utterly inappropriate. It's insulting to real victims of real genocides or communist oppression to use that kind of language about this. It's possible to feel very strongly about something, and genuinely disagree about it, whilst also maintaining both a sense of proportion and a civil attitude.
And yes, this kind of thing happens in academia too. There's a rather unpleasant spat going on right now between some prominent figures in American and Canadian analytic philosophy about who said what about whom, which is being played out across a number of public forums. (I don't want to say anything more specific or I'd probably get sued as well.) And that too is childish and depressing and the actions taken are way out of proportion. I'll add that people often do dismiss my academic subject - philosophy of religion doesn't exactly command universal respect among either philosophers or theologians, who can tend not to understand what it is; and both philosophy and (especially) theology get regularly dismissed by academics in other fields (again usually on the basis of a lack of understanding). But while that is annoying, it doesn't warrant calling people Nazis or supporters of genocide. And neither does what's being discussed here.
What I'm saying is that the dismissive attitudes, the vitriol, the flaming and trolling, and the ridiculously over-the-top language are utterly inappropriate. It's insulting to real victims of real genocides or communist oppression to use that kind of language about this. It's possible to feel very strongly about something, and genuinely disagree about it, whilst also maintaining both a sense of proportion and a civil attitude.
And yes, this kind of thing happens in academia too. There's a rather unpleasant spat going on right now between some prominent figures in American and Canadian analytic philosophy about who said what about whom, which is being played out across a number of public forums. (I don't want to say anything more specific or I'd probably get sued as well.) And that too is childish and depressing and the actions taken are way out of proportion. I'll add that people often do dismiss my academic subject - philosophy of religion doesn't exactly command universal respect among either philosophers or theologians, who can tend not to understand what it is; and both philosophy and (especially) theology get regularly dismissed by academics in other fields (again usually on the basis of a lack of understanding). But while that is annoying, it doesn't warrant calling people Nazis or supporters of genocide. And neither does what's being discussed here.
Thlayli
Le Pétit Prince
Plotinus, the problem is that there are other issues bound up with this merge issue. When you tell us to just be quiet and discuss the merge, you're ignoring the fact that the only reason we're having this discussion is because our leadership wants us to have it.
As such, the personalities behind the merge, the leadership instigating the merge, is as much a topic of conversation as the merits of the merge. And furthermore, the merits of the merge engage with those personalities. I might love a forum merge if someone I personally respect is leading it. I might hate a forum merge if someone I know has mishandled NES forum affairs is spearheading it.
The moderators would like to approach the merge as an isolated event which can occur, or not occur, regardless of the context of what's happening outside, but that isn't the case. Whether or not the merge will be successful is dependent on whether or not the autonomy of the forum is respected. And whether or not the autonomy of the forum is respected is dependent on whether or not we have responsible leadership and the freedom to express our dissent with the way things are done on this site.
You can't simply isolate the merger as an issue, because, as I have repeatedly pointed out, the merger exists in its social and political context here on CFC. If you want to have this conversation, you need to have other conversations as well. The individuals leading the merge matter because they are the ones who will govern the merged forum.
As such, the personalities behind the merge, the leadership instigating the merge, is as much a topic of conversation as the merits of the merge. And furthermore, the merits of the merge engage with those personalities. I might love a forum merge if someone I personally respect is leading it. I might hate a forum merge if someone I know has mishandled NES forum affairs is spearheading it.
The moderators would like to approach the merge as an isolated event which can occur, or not occur, regardless of the context of what's happening outside, but that isn't the case. Whether or not the merge will be successful is dependent on whether or not the autonomy of the forum is respected. And whether or not the autonomy of the forum is respected is dependent on whether or not we have responsible leadership and the freedom to express our dissent with the way things are done on this site.
You can't simply isolate the merger as an issue, because, as I have repeatedly pointed out, the merger exists in its social and political context here on CFC. If you want to have this conversation, you need to have other conversations as well. The individuals leading the merge matter because they are the ones who will govern the merged forum.
Ailedhoo
wonderer
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...goodbye the one and future PDMA thread; you were young and a promising seed for critiques but now both NESers and IOTers are rushing PDMA thing by setting them in a thread meant about the merge we will not have the tools of critique we were aiming for. 
IOT's have changed significantly in the past few years, and in my opinion have seen a marked increase in quality. You should check out SouthernKing's "Kashmir". Long term, just because there's MORE of one type of game does not diminish the other type of game. EoE is a story oriented nes surviving for many a year when there was no other story oriented nes. I think DaftPanzer could totally run his LifeNes under NES or IOT. Some of our games are more dramatically different, but that does not mean its one or another.
thomas.berubeg
Wandering the World
Agreed.
Angst
Rambling and inconsistent
I like the merger, and ideally support it, just think the climate is ill suited for it right now (ie people are too upset about the mod culture to properly accept this change when they don't like it to begin with). I think doing it now is unpragmatic.
Luckymoose
The World is Mine
The problem, Plot, is the staff is assuming wanting protections for the things we love in the face of a merger is the same as flaming/trolling/fighting the merger. It isn't, and I'm sick of you viewing it that way. I don't troll IOT, and most of them don't troll me. I've sunk thousands of hours into this hobby, made tons of good friends here, and have an intense connection and desire to defend it. I don't like it when one liner popping pariahs (as azale called them, and has been reinforced by both communities) can toss off claims of forcing one thing or another on people and punishing those who disagree.
Newsflash: Creative people don't work well at gunpoint. You're a novelist, you know that. The fastest way to kill the hobby is to ignore all the concerns about the security of both parties in this merger. The absolute worse thing you can do is resign this to "not serious business" and tell people their art (yes, it is art) is worthless. We bring an extraordinarily unique creative experience to CFC, I wish you'd take us seriously. When one individual calls for the destruction of hobby cultures for some vision no one else ever wanted, that is effective forum genocide. You don't like the word? Tough. That's what it is.
If it isn't an equal and fair merger, it shouldn't happen.
thomas.berubeg
Wandering the World
I wish there was a like button on cfc.
I understand that you want to protect the things you care about. That's reasonable. I haven't called that flaming/trolling/etc.
Apart from the claim that the word "genocide" is remotely appropriate for this, I agree with what you say here too. Neither I nor, I think, any of the other staff have intended to say that anyone's games or contribution to the site is "worthless". I'm sorry that I didn't express myself clearly enough before to make that plain. It's extremely worthwhile and it's been sad to see the NESing community going through difficulties, here and elsewhere, and I want you to be able to continue in whatever form is best for you. That's one of the reasons for this merger proposal and for the poll here and the discussion thread to allow people to express their concerns one way or the other. But we ask that that discussion be done civilly and in accordance with the rules of this site.
I expect we are all very glad to hear that. I think one of our prime concerns is that the imposition of a merger, against the wishes of a good proportion of the community, will, ipso facto, prevent us from continuing in the form which is best for us, i.e. unmerged, as we are now. The real proof of this is simply that so many of us oppose it. This is why the merger should not take place.
Our other main concern is the moderation problem, which has already prevented us from continuing in the form which is best for us, by driving us out into the Frontier (which, frankly, isn't nearly as good for our purposes aside from the moderation, and moreover isn't our home). To continue in the form which is best for us, we really need to be able to control applications to our NESes, since this is vital for upholding quality in NESes which are seriously aiming for a particular kind of thing - verisimilitude and quality of writing - which is only some of them, but nevertheless NES mods need to be able to control this.
We also need to be able to trust site moderation to be reasonably fair and even-handed, which they manifestly aren't, as you can no doubt see from their partisanship in the Amon issue a while ago and in this very debate here. Almost all NESers and IOTers (with the occasional exception, e.g. <nuke>) are agreed that there are some serious problems here, and solutions include us having ways of publically appealing moderator actions and us having a moderator that we ourselves have approved of. We also need to be able to trust site moderation not to do things like impose new moderators - or similarly important things - without any proper consultation: you were attempting, I believe, to compromise with us by giving us a NESer mod in the shape of EQ, but you happened, through lack of consultation, to choose one of the few NESers that are just as unacceptable to most of us as any non-NESer could be, for historical but very real reasons.
Also, earlier on in this discussion, it was said that those of us who, because of the moderation problem, have gone to the Frontier, should have less of a say in all this: certain people suggested that only those NESers who have been active on CFC since November should have a say. You can see that, given the moderation problems, carrying out the merger would be particularly problematic, because it would be taken, in some sense, as taking advantage of our absence; any NES-IOT forum that were merged before the moderation issues were sorted out would have been set up in a way that did not take account of those of us who are not here because of those issues, and this is clearly a problem.
I hope you see that these are very real problems, and since you want us to be able to continue in the way that we wish to, I hope you will do something about them.
JohannaK
Heroically Clueless
Right now, this is my feeling as well.
Ailedhoo
wonderer
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The majority of votes are in favor, including over half of whom are NESers (returning to AA's observations). To deny the merger is to deny the silent majority.
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