Omega124
Challenging Fate
I don't think we'd divide the voter base between NESers and IOTers, but simply just enfranchise both. There shouldn't be a problem in the first place about that.
Discussion on Potential NES and IOT Forum Merger
- Thread starter BSmith1068
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@Stockholme: Maybe I am being a bit unfair. Part of the reason I don't want this to happen is because I was the OP of the last poll and it has made me really bitter. That was a huge embarrassment for everyone involved. I guess my other point is that this poll isn't going to do anything at all except waste everyone's time and make people angry and upset. I think this thread is proof enough that there is significant opposition to the proposal and a poll isn't going to change that.
J.K. Stockholme
Right Opposition
No one here has been writing essays on the goodness of a merge, sure, but a lot of people have here and elsewhere said publicly they think it's a good idea. We have heard also people against it. As far as I'm concerned, knowing this is an issue that's been debated a lot in the past and nothing in this thread is going to really elucidate on old arguments any further, I've been concerning myself with the following part of the actual stated purpose of this discussion thread:
I think the only way to quantifiably understand the opposition to a merge is through a referendum. I don't believe we can hash it out here in this thread; we need scientific, democratically legitimate evidence, not the conjecture of the few posters who stroll into this thread. Therefore my concerns are with making sure such a referendum, which I posit is the only legitimate way to determine whether or not there is significant opposition to a merge, is fair and democratic.
While I'm hesitant to allow people to self-select themselves into their own camps, that might be the only really fair and non-discriminatory way of doing it. If you've posted in a NES and an IOT prior to September 10th, you can vote in either subforum's poll.
I'm sorry the subject makes you feel that way, but as you heard me say before, the last one was an embarrassment because it was unfair and undemocratic, not because we can't have a referendum on this and still be friends.
I also don't believe that people can't, given a fair, democratic venue, express their opinions with some civility. For example I think the previous poll on this issue probably generated a lot of anger precisely because people felt they had to win minds RIGHT NOW, and didn't feel they had sufficient time to prove their case. A democratic solution is to have a campaign period of some period of time (say for example 2 months), and then have a polling period (say 1 month), thus reducing the feeling of having to imminently convince people. There are other ways we can make it a civil and fair process which few will become angry about.
I also don't think this thread is proof of anything other than that lots of people have opinions either way on this issue. As I said in response to Lefty, I don't believe you can gleam anything from a thread or a poorly done poll - you need a systematically democratic process to have any real meaningful idea of what a community of people believe. You can't just hear some people's opinions, you need to hear everyone's opinion. I'd recommend you help develop the process rather than fight the idea bringing up the issue at all.
One month does allow for time to consider the pros and cons and make a decision... but it also gives enough time for whoever posts the poll/moderates the forum where the vote is held or counts the votes to be plagued with "I voted THIS way, but I changed my mind and now I want to vote THAT way. Can I change my vote?"
What is your opinion on vote-changing?
Ailedhoo
wonderer
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Wait; I think a joint poll should be done. Doing camps would only encourage the same "us vs them" mentality that has been critiqued. If you want to "class" the vote then have in the poll the following options: NESer go Yes, IOTer go Yes, Dual Citizen go Yes, NESer go No, IOTer go No and Dual Citizen go No. Alternatively have in what ever voter registration thread a poll or something for the figures to record their notions. Forcing dual citizens to "pick a camp" and keeping the electoral boxes away from each other may only cause issues. This is a debate about sub-forums, not forums. Any rate the pole will be on Site Feedback, so it would make more logistical sense for a single pole.
Anyway we have still got to consider the Frontier; who among the NESers and IOTers are staying other there with no intent to return to CFC? We must honor dual citizens of both forums but people who wish to renounce their citizenship in CFC may have... difficulty in justifying in taking part in a vote that will affect CFC matters. We are going to have to address this sooner or later; it will be a painful part of the debate indeed.
Anyway: if two poles for the referendum are enforced anyway (but lock the threads to posts if you can do it without locking the pole; have all posts set to a third thread in Site Feedback for continued voter campaigning) then at least do not place a 2/3 requirement for things to pass. I echo this notion:
Never in the debate was made in the Scottish referendum that the Yes campaign had to aim for 2/3 of the votes; rather they had to pass the implied 50% margin. A independent Scotland would be a lot more harder to alter than changing sub-forums I ensure you. We should have a proper 50% margin or at the least 60% for practical means. A 75% would be just... excessive. I think we might best keeping to the Westminster model for this "law."
Anyway we have still got to consider the Frontier; who among the NESers and IOTers are staying other there with no intent to return to CFC? We must honor dual citizens of both forums but people who wish to renounce their citizenship in CFC may have... difficulty in justifying in taking part in a vote that will affect CFC matters. We are going to have to address this sooner or later; it will be a painful part of the debate indeed.
Anyway: if two poles for the referendum are enforced anyway (but lock the threads to posts if you can do it without locking the pole; have all posts set to a third thread in Site Feedback for continued voter campaigning) then at least do not place a 2/3 requirement for things to pass. I echo this notion:
Never in the debate was made in the Scottish referendum that the Yes campaign had to aim for 2/3 of the votes; rather they had to pass the implied 50% margin. A independent Scotland would be a lot more harder to alter than changing sub-forums I ensure you. We should have a proper 50% margin or at the least 60% for practical means. A 75% would be just... excessive. I think we might best keeping to the Westminster model for this "law."
J.K. Stockholme
Right Opposition
I think it's a good idea.
If we went with the non-anonymous method of counting posts in a "polling station" thread, then people could edit their posts and it'd be impossible to neglect a re-vote - on the final day of polling all you'd have are single votes in favour or against - no fuss.
If we had an anonymous referendum it'd get harder to account for re-voting, but it's still necessary and legitimate to allow re-voting given that a poll will have to happen over at least a month so that people have enough time to make a decision and people who don't visit the forums often have a much higher chance of returning to find out about the referendum and make a decision.
No, I would strongly advocate AGAINST having a single poll here on the Site Feedback section - we want to maximize the number of people who see the referendum, not hide it away in this far off place. We want maximum turnout, not random turnout based on the luck of noticing the poll is here.
I also don't know what the us v. them mentality really is. You've conceded that NES and IOT should both separately as well as communally be in favour of the merge for it to happen, that's why you suggest voter registration with options of "NESer no," and "IOTer no," etc. So why is having two referendum threads in NES and IOT anything other than extremely intuitive in serving that purpose? How does that foster us v. them mentality? And why do we care, given that we already agree as part of your premise that we need to delineate between ... "us" ... and "them" (NES and IOT voters - or if you like - IOT and NES voters)?
As for your second paragraph, no, we don't have to spite people who made NES what it is today and chose to redirect their time to another forum. People who have moved to the Frontier have every right to vote in the future of this hobby here, as a) we can't presume all of them will never return, and b) it's still all of our collective hobby, here or there. Now THERE's an us v. them situation! In any case, if anyone at the Frontier is truly serious about boycotting CFC NES then they'll opt voluntarily to not vote on the referendum.
Anyway, if you want my honest opinion, I think the international standard for secession is kinda nuts. 50% + 1 and a new nation is born? That's a little wacky. And regardless, I've pointed out already that you negate all the benefits of a merge (namely, an increased player base) if you alienate just less than half of the populations you wish to merge together.
I have seen enough objections/prefer it the way it is now to judge this is currently a no go on the standard I gave in post 22.
After things settle down in a couple months I will take a private poll of NES players to confirm if there are still significant objections.
After things settle down in a couple months I will take a private poll of NES players to confirm if there are still significant objections.
J.K. Stockholme
Right Opposition
This is why I want a poll. People's perceptions are totally at odds with any semblance of reality. I've reread this entire thread and will quote every post I found that stated explicit opposition to a merge at any point in the future (I've only quoted the portion which states opposition, not the whole post):
Spoiler :
Spoiler :
Spoiler :
I can understand and sympathize with you Lefty, some people asserted that there was broad opposition - but I have never believed assertions, and I should hope I've convinced you that there must be a public referendum to determine if there is significant opposition. Anything less won't be accountable, won't be democratic, and won't even tell you what you want to know - is there sizeable opposition?
And if anyone doesn't trust my assessment - it's scientific, falsifiable, and entirely accountable! Look for yourself and prove me wrong that I've missed any explicit opposition.
I think I do oppose it, by the way, since you ask. I particularly oppose doing it until the dust has settled on all this and we are sure whether the mods are going to actually do something about PDMA, etc., but I nevertheless oppose it in general.
I did not say that my observations were limited to this thread.
Thlayli
Le Pétit Prince
Any poll taken before concrete reforms are enacted to bring back the segment of the NESing population (including myself) which has left this forum would be unnecessarily biased towards the IOT community which has largely remained.
With that said, the ancestral character and aesthetic of NES and IOT *is* different, maybe not obvious to an observer but definitely for a long-time player. Never Ending Stories are hybrid game-stories in which narrative elements have a serious impact on gameplay and vice versa. IOTs may be moving way from being strict boardgames, but they have a reduced narrative/roleplaying element present in the more serious NESes, which often stress internal, factional complexity as much as struggles for foreign supremacy.
I don't doubt that there have been NESes that resemble IOTs in many respects, and the opposite, but that doesn't invalidate the categorical distinction.
I am generally, though not categorically, opposed to a merger. I would support a merger if the NES postcount and name was protected, but at that point, that's more of an annexation than a merger.
With that said, the ancestral character and aesthetic of NES and IOT *is* different, maybe not obvious to an observer but definitely for a long-time player. Never Ending Stories are hybrid game-stories in which narrative elements have a serious impact on gameplay and vice versa. IOTs may be moving way from being strict boardgames, but they have a reduced narrative/roleplaying element present in the more serious NESes, which often stress internal, factional complexity as much as struggles for foreign supremacy.
I don't doubt that there have been NESes that resemble IOTs in many respects, and the opposite, but that doesn't invalidate the categorical distinction.
I am generally, though not categorically, opposed to a merger. I would support a merger if the NES postcount and name was protected, but at that point, that's more of an annexation than a merger.
Ailedhoo
wonderer
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The Site Feedback is not a far off place but of the top part of the forum; advertisements for the pole can be conducted on both forums but the pole must have a single thread for the openness of the debate.
I keep seeing people (of both sub-forums I should mention) take rather ill regards to people just for being of the other sub-forum. Thus we have a conspiracy that the legacy of NES is under threat with plots to remove past content, while we have the case of a IOTer who I will not mention having a rather... strained negativity towards the exodus.
I am just tired of all peoples of both forums looking down at each other; it kinda hinders the fun. I feared the separate polls would become... grounds of contempt as it were. It also hinders dual citizenship by forcing them to "pick a camp," thus hindering their rights to dual citizenship.
I suggested the "NESer no" and "IOTer no" options as attempted compromise for those who feel that both sub-forums need both majorities each; this way we can count both in the same pole.
My concern was a issue that the merge would primarily effect those who are going to still be active on CFC; hence while I support the exodus I am concerned about those who renounce their time on CFC affecting those who are either staying behind or (like me) becoming of a dual citizen of both CFC and Frontier. It was a issue of basically allowing those serious about not returning to CFC to fully maintain that and for ensuring that those who are either
I guess anything between 48%-52% can be serious mod judge consideration, while 55-60% would be a ideal minimum if must be but I fear that 75% margin would be akin to not allowing laws to pass well. If over half of both forums support the merge then we will have the British efficiency in the matter. My opposition to 75% is hence in fear that the will of the majority may be set backwards, which ever way the vote goes for the matter would have to be deployed in equality to both a no or a yes.
While I understand the issue we got to be certain that any vote on a possible merge is not hijacked by the PDMA talks, as faith in potential reforms being bought up are alas low, though EQandcivfanatic's new job may spring hope. Thankfully any vote may (hopefully) take place after the situation is clear, whether the reforms the exodus hoped for are bought about or not. We have to take the possibility of the reforms not being deployed; if they are not then we must act accordingly. If the reforms on PDMA are bought about for all of CFC then all the better.
As for names; World Building Games is a good name for a Single Thread Game styled merged thread, no? Both NES and IOT could be represented by such a act of union name. Any case the merge would not destroy the legacy of NES or IOT, nor should any annexation of one name over the other be a commendation in all of this as it would hinder the new beginning as a union known as World Building. Basically the Frontier's STG has the potential to be a... experimental model for CFC's WBG.
I ensure you Thlayli that my support for the merge is on condition the post-count is protected (indeed it must be protected for both sub-forums if the merge is to work) and the legacies maintained but I feel the name is best set to the World Building notion as oppose to allowing either NES or IOT take up the name; even the ugliness of the names NES-IOT and IOT-NES would be more profitable for the forum than having a annexation that you are worried about. I hence do not support Taillesskangaru's preferred option of IOT being annexed by NES, not do I support IOT annexing NES; I support a proper, democratically declared marriage.
Civ'ed
I ain't gotta explain a thing
To be fair, the terms NES and IOT would still be in use in the new forum, and postcounts would probably stay, with WBG or whatever we decide on being an overarching term.
And annexation by anyone is a godawful idea. If anything, let's go by the whole "federation of equals" thing, rather than "This is IOT-NES" or "This is NES-and-I-guess-some-other-stuff-as-well" or "This is the incorporated territory of New Argentina".
Nintz
King of the Britons
My opinion is thus.
I, as someone that has played/hosted/observed quite a few NESes with only 1-2 IOT games ever played in, am in favor of a merger. It is my PERSONAL OPINION that if we are here to play games, to create vibrant world and great stories. If we are here to, simply put, have fun.
If this is the case, we should ought to constantly expand our player base, invite new ideas, and the like. We should not have a pre-defined culture that is the driving force of what we do. This is why I respectfully disagree with all of the NESers who left, as I am not here for politics and drama, but to relax and have fun.
THEREFORE. I am and have always been in favor of a merger on the grounds that collaboration between two different and fairly well developed sub-forums would result in a far better experieince for both sub-forums, once the initial xenophobia wears off. It would result in the culture of both groups being irrevocably changed. But in all honesty. I'm uncertain NES will ever be the same, even if all of the exodus people came back right now.
I, as someone that has played/hosted/observed quite a few NESes with only 1-2 IOT games ever played in, am in favor of a merger. It is my PERSONAL OPINION that if we are here to play games, to create vibrant world and great stories. If we are here to, simply put, have fun.
If this is the case, we should ought to constantly expand our player base, invite new ideas, and the like. We should not have a pre-defined culture that is the driving force of what we do. This is why I respectfully disagree with all of the NESers who left, as I am not here for politics and drama, but to relax and have fun.
THEREFORE. I am and have always been in favor of a merger on the grounds that collaboration between two different and fairly well developed sub-forums would result in a far better experieince for both sub-forums, once the initial xenophobia wears off. It would result in the culture of both groups being irrevocably changed. But in all honesty. I'm uncertain NES will ever be the same, even if all of the exodus people came back right now.
Daftpanzer
canonically ambiguous
NES forum is now running a grand total of three active NESes according to my observations. I think the game moderators should be the main voices you listen to, as I think it will really impact them most of all:
EQandcivfanatic
Nintz
J.K. Stockholme
And perhaps to a lesser extent:
Lord_Iggy ( update nao
)
I'm also planning to update my evolution game here on CFC. I'm ambivalent about the merger, I'll happily go with the flow on that decision.
EQandcivfanatic
Nintz
J.K. Stockholme
And perhaps to a lesser extent:
Lord_Iggy ( update nao
)I'm also planning to update my evolution game here on CFC. I'm ambivalent about the merger, I'll happily go with the flow on that decision.
Technically, one poll in multiple subfora could be substantially done by posting the thread (closed initially) in one place, move it and leave a redirect, move it again and leave a redirect, then open it.
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Well apparently we are moving the discussion to this thread, I'll ask my question here again.
Also I think STGs are a terrible name and we should stick to something like IOT-NES or NES-IOT. No point abandoning our history.
Also I think STGs are a terrible name and we should stick to something like IOT-NES or NES-IOT. No point abandoning our history.
hoplitejoe
Top fun-poster
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No- the name change is super important.
IOT and NES make it unclear what the subforum is for- all they do is make it less likely new players will join.
IOT and NES make it unclear what the subforum is for- all they do is make it less likely new players will join.
Zack
99% hot gas
What is this based on, exactly? Seems like nonsense to me.
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