Distractions from the War thread

[ywhtptgtfo]

Sorry, what? Russia denied they did anything back there. It was confirmed a long time after.

Being snarky about this does not make your point anymore convincing. The main issue of concern here is the potential of abuse. Powerful countries generally do not act in good faith already and giving them more justifications to bully other countries is not going to help things.

You can try to rationalize how a country can declare war on its leader and not its people, but wars are often ugly and lots of people will die during the course of the war. The most famous casualties of the 2003 Iraq War are those poor American soldiers who died from militant attacks or suffered PTSD. What's less famous are the 100K+ Iraqi civilians that died as collateral damage: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Casualties_of_the_Iraq_War. They didn't get that fancy media sympathy that others enjoyed.

There had been a lot of videos footages of crying civilians lamenting how American bombs were dropped onto weddings, homes, and killing entire families. You are a victim of war yourself, I would imagine you can relate to that suffering, no?

 

[IgrOK[SU]]

Being snarky about this does not make your point anymore convincing. The main issue of concern here is the potential of abuse. Powerful countries generally do not act in good faith already and giving them more justifications to bully other countries is not going to help things.

You can try to rationalize how a country can declare war on its leader and not its people, but wars are often ugly and lots of people will die during the course of the war. The most famous casualties of the 2003 Iraq War are those poor American soldiers who died from militant attacks or suffered PTSD. What's less famous are the 100K+ Iraqi civilians that died as collateral damage: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Casualties_of_the_Iraq_War. They didn't get that fancy media sympathy that others enjoyed.

There had been a lot of videos footages of crying civilians lamenting how American bombs were dropped onto weddings, homes, and killing entire families. You are a victim of war yourself, I would imagine you can relate to that suffering, no?

I'm only saying that war vs the dictatorship is less evil, than the same war vs the democracy. Nothing more. And this "evil" is my subjective evaluation. Wars can be compared on different parameters, that's one of them. Maybe, not the most important. But important.
That's just me, I'm not claiming some universal principle. From my POV - I hate dictatorships. Country rulled by a dictator is his personal slaves on his own territory, it's not a "country" in the modern sence. So I'm not sure you can even call it a "war".
I understand that this logic can be used by anyone. But if Russia says Zelensky is a dictator (before the war) - yes, it's a big deal, is it a correct statement or not. War would be less evil if it was true in my opinion.

 

[ywhtptgtfo]

I'm only saying that war vs the dictatorship is less evil, than the same war vs the democracy. Nothing more. And this "evil" is my subjective evaluation. Wars can be compared on different parameters, that's one of them. Maybe, not the most important. But important.
That's just me, I'm not claiming some universal principle. From my POV - I hate dictatorships. Country rulled by a dictator is his personal slaves on his own territory, it's not a "country" in the modern sence. So I'm not sure you can even call it a "war".
I understand that this logic can be used by anyone. But if Russia says Zelensky is a dictator (before the war) - yes, it's a big deal, is it a correct statement or not. War would be less evil if it was true in my opinion.

It is important to note that the general population is much more interested in the results than the nature of the system. As long as a regime delivers an adequate performance, there will be a lot of inertia against rocking the boat. Singapore is a prime example of a benevolent dictatorship under Lee Hisen Loong and it's almost indistinguishable from any Westernized country in terms of quality of life.

A more controversial example would be China which is becoming more totalitarian and cruel under Xi Jinping but at the same time people living there enjoyed unprecedented prosperity in stark contrast to the extreme poverty experienced just a generation ago. Brainwashed or not, I don't think many will be inclined to rock the boat.

I should also note that offensive invasions without valid justification are a most undemocratic act to perform unless there is majority support within the target country to invite the invaders. Even if you have strong distaste for a target dictatorship, the people under that regime may not be inclined to sacrifice their lives for your goals.

Finally, always remember the boomerang. Let's say Russian collapses from this war and becomes a democracy again while Ukraine consolidates to a dictatorship (e.g. Orban-style), then they could use that casus bellus you advocated for to legitly "rescue" Ukraine from the dictatorship.

 

[r16]

good war is when Western media tells you . Bad war is when Western media tells you . And IF they could ever conceive that there would ever be a Russian revival after the initial period , with all its Buchas and the narratives and whatnot , they would all sit on their sitting muscles and do nothing .

 

[Zardnaar]

I don't think being a dictatorship by itself is a cause for war.

If they're invading others, ethnic cleansing, supporting terrorism it becomes a maybe depending on the situation.

 

[Birdjaguar]

I don't think being a dictatorship by itself is a cause for war.

IIRC once Franco took charge, Spain did not get involved in any significant wars.

 

[Zardnaar]

IIRC once Franco took charge, Spain did not get involved in any significant wars.

I'm more of a realist. Overthrowing tin pot dictator is probably going to kill a lot more people than letting them be.

 

[ywhtptgtfo]

I don't think being a dictatorship by itself is a cause for war.

If they're invading others, ethnic cleansing, supporting terrorism it becomes a maybe depending on the situation.

Indeed. Actions are what should matter in terms of legality. A dictatorship is more prone to committing these acts but atrocities are bad regardless of the nature of the perpetuator. I'd say it's arguably worse if a well-functioning democracy commits crimes against humanity because that means the people within supports such crimes.

 

[FriendlyFire]

IIRC once Franco took charge, Spain did not get involved in any significant wars.

Spain was completely exhausted by the Civil War. It really was in no position to get involved with WW2
Though at least Franco had the foresight not to throw hes lot in with Hitler in exchange for territories and supplies

 

[DaggerDigwillow]

Numbers don't matter it who's controls the money.

Hint US dollar, Euro, pound and yen.

China, Russia, Saudi Arabia, Iran, and many others are looking to move away from the Petrodollar. Increasingly Europe in entertaining this notion as well. The writing is on the wall for the USA and the crony corrupt socialism that has weakened their economic hand. Long gone are the days of unrestrained capitalism that created the US as a superpower. When they lose the Petrodollar America is going to turn into hell on earth.