Do you beileve in evolution? Why or why not?

[Bill3000]

You'll note that you're asking "why is there a why?". I think that's funny.

Has the question "why does the universe exist?" ever occurred to you? Don't you want an answer to that question?

Science cannot answer the question, but it is there.

And why does that question need to be answered? What if there isn't an answer to that question; e.g. that there is no actual "purpose" to the universe?

 

[shadow2k]

You're confusing different definitions of the word "universe."

I mean universe as in "All that is possible to exist" - this is probably better to call it the multiverse, really.

You are defining a universe as "A part of reality that has no outside contact with the rest of reality" - e.g. the "laws" of physics (a misnomer here, as the underlying laws of the multiverse would still stay the same, it would just be differing variables) could differ from universe to universe, and/or a universe in which matter is trapped in and cannot escape from.

Both doesn't include the fact that the existance of god requires him to be in the underlying multiverse and thus still apply to the "ultimate" laws of physics. That's the requirement for existance. If god was a painter, the ability of the colors of the paint and how it is painted on a canvas still has its own laws and thus exists in the ultimate universe.

I'm didn't define "universe" at all, only you did. I only pointed out that science obviously doesn't always use the definition you used, so why should the guy who you were talking to? The only response you left open for him was to agree with you...but only because you used a loaded question. I just stuck another option out there is all.

Before I say anything else, I just want to say I don't believe in God, or what I'm about to say.

You're assumption that God is required to obey the laws of physics is ridiculous. You assume that he's like you or I, or anything on this earth, or this universe. God is omnipotent...you know, all-powerful. Powerful enough to bend/break your silly laws of physics. God MADE the laws of physics, and can break them anytime he wants. He doesn't have to exist in this plane, or that plane...he goes wherever the heck he wants. He's God! I mean, come on.

 

[Perfection]

You're assumption that God is required to obey the laws of physics is ridiculous. You assume that he's like you or I, or anything on this earth, or this universe. God is omnipotent...you know, all-powerful. Powerful enough to bend/break your silly laws of physics. God MADE the laws of physics, and can break them anytime he wants. He doesn't have to exist in this plane, or that plane...he goes wherever the heck he wants. He's God! I mean, come on.

Well, I'd argue that a god would need to follow some level of phyiscs of a higher level. Think of it like a physics engine in a game, just because you create a microcosm with your style of physics imposed on it doesn't mean you yourself aren't imposed by some greater system of physical law.

Physics alone is.

 

[El_Machinae]

True, but at that level, I think a term other than 'physics' would need to be used. Just like biology is actually really complex chemistry with is just physics, we can think that the 'creator' is more complex than the physics we can calculate.

What if there isn't an answer to that question; e.g. that there is no actual "purpose" to the universe?

That's an answer to the question. Can you prove that there's no purpose?

 

[Bill3000]

Precisely my point. Unless you assume that god can overcome logic, (therefore making logic meaningless) there must be laws that god is constrained by. Period. It may not be the rules we are confined by and understand, it may be as little as having total mastery of the physics of this universe, e.g. "Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic," it may be as much as having control over every variable in a form of suprerphysics, but regardless, there must be some things that god is constrained by, or you would resort to nihilism and render god meaningless.

That's an answer to the question. Can you prove that there's no purpose?

Wouldn't it be better to focus on things that we have the potential to understand than wonder about things that we cannot possible fathom to explain unless we have an understanding?

 

[El_Machinae]

Yes and no ... eventually everyone answers the 'why?' for themselves. And since there's no obviously-true answer, there's no reason to disparage other people's views. edit: except when they're obviously wrong or harmful to ourselves.

edit: You, me, and every honest Christian agrees with your first paragraph. They just include morality in the definition (and the ever-scary "Everything God does is Good, by definition. Everything God wants is Good, by definition). You and I might not include 'morality' in the Creator's purview, and answer the question "why be moral?" with the same answer with "why does the universe exist?"

 

[shadow2k]

Well, I'd argue that a god would need to follow some level of phyiscs of a higher level. Think of it like a physics engine in a game, just because you create a microcosm with your style of physics imposed on it doesn't mean you yourself aren't imposed by some greater system of physical law.

Physics alone is.

God is omnipotent and infallible. This means that using science to specify what God can or cannot do will never work. God can change the laws of physics tomorrow if he wants, he's omnipotent.

 

[shadow2k]

there must be laws that god is constrained by. Period.

This is the problem. God is all-powerful, by definition. He can do anything he wants.

(Frustrating, I know)

 

[El_Machinae]

God is all-powerful, by definition. He can do anything he wants.

Why did He create a world with Evil in it, then?

I'll edit in a link to another thread soon ...

 

[El_Machinae]

Crap ... who started that thread on the problem of evil? Or what was its title? It was fairly recent.

 

[Perfection]

God is omnipotent and infallible. This means that using science to specify what God can or cannot do will never work. God can change the laws of physics tomorrow if he wants, he's omnipotent.

Sure it can! You can experiment on god! If god can be demonstrated to exist by scientific means than we can analyze god's behavior and see what makes him tick! The psychological pathways and rules of thought for god become the new most basic laws of physics!

 

[shadow2k]

Why did He create a world with Evil in it, then?

I'll edit in a link to another thread soon ...

I don't know what thread you're talking about. Do an internet search on your question though. They give all sorts of different answers, from freewill, to good not existing without evil, etc...

 

[El_Machinae]

You can experiment on god!

I posit that an experiment on God requires the death of the observer. Because we cannot see to find any stimuli on Earth.

 

[shadow2k]

Sure it can! You can experiment on god! If god can be demonstrated to exist by scientific means than we can analyze god's behavior and see what makes him tick! The psychological pathways and rules of thought for god become the new most basic laws of physics!

You want to turn God into a lab rat? You're going to hell, I'll see you there.

 

[shadow2k]

Oh, wait...here's an interesting one...

A university professor challenged his students with this question: Did God create everything that exists? A student bravely replied, "Yes, He did!" "God created everything?" the professor asked. "Yes, sir," the student replied. The professor answered, "If God created everything, then God created evil since evil exists, and according to the principle that our works define who we are, then God is evil." The student became quiet before such an answer. The professor was quite pleased with himself and boasted to the students that he had proven with yet another argument that the Christian faith was a myth. Another student raised his hand and said, "Can I ask you a question, professor?" "Of course," replied the professor. The student stood up and asked, "Professor, does cold exist?" "What kind of question is this?" retorted the professor. "Of course it exists. Have you never been cold?" The other students snickered at the young man's question. The young man replied, "In fact sir, cold does not exist. According to the laws of Physics, what we consider cold is in reality the absence of heat. Everybody and every object is susceptible to study when it has or transmits energy, and heat is what makes a body or matter have or transmit energy. Absolute zero (-460 degrees F) is the total absence of heat: all matter becomes inert and incapable of reaction at that temperature. Cold does not exist. We have created this word to describe how we feel if we have too little heat." The student continued: "Professor, does darkness exist?" The professor responded, "Of course it does!" The student replied, "Once again you are wrong, sir; darkness does not exist either. Darkness is, in reality, the absence of light. Light we can study, but not darkness. In fact, we can use Newton's prism to break white light into many colors and study the various wavelengths of color. You cannot measure darkness. A simple ray of light can break into a world of darkness and illuminate it. How can you know how dark a certain space is? You measure the amount of light present. Isnt this correct? Darkness is a term used by man to describe what happens when there is no light present." Finally the young man asked the professor, "Sir, does evil exist?" Now visibly shaken, the professor responded, "Of course, as I have already said. We see it every day. It is in the daily example of man's inhumanity to man. It is in the multitude of crime and violence everywhere in the world. These manifestations are nothing else but evil." To this the student replied, "Evil does not exist sir, or at least it does not exist unto itself. Evil is simply the absence of God. It is just like darkness and cold, a word that man has created to describe the absence of God. God did not create evil. Evil is not like faith or love that exist just as do light or heat. Evil is the result of what happens when man does not have God's love present in his heart. It's like the cold that comes when there is no heat or the darkness that comes when there is no light." The professor sat down, deep in thought. The young student's name was Albert Einstein.

*this tale is told with and without Einstein in it by the way, so don't pay much attention to that.

 

[El_Machinae]

Yeah, sure, except if evil is the absence of God, then God does not encompass everything (is not omnipresent) - there are places in the Universe that God isn't. In addition, since the evil is apparent, God tacitly approves its existence, because God does not go where the evil is.

Light cannot choose to go into a dark room. God can choose to go whereever He wants.

And let me assure you, suffering actually exists.

 

[shadow2k]

Yeah, sure, except if evil is the absence of God, then God does not encompass everything (is not omnipresent) - there are places in the Universe that God isn't. In addition, since the evil is apparent, God tacitly approves its existence, because God does not go where the evil is.

Light cannot choose to go into a dark room. God can choose to go whereever He wants.

And let me assure you, suffering actually exists.

In other versions, the little tale continues actually...

Now, Professor, with your permission, I would like to anticipate your next question. How can an omnipotent/omnipresent God be NOT present?"

The professor laughed with enthusiasm at the young man's quick mind and agreed, that was his next question.

The student replied, "We, as finite human beings, can never fully understand an infinite God. Sometimes we think we understand why God is doing something, only to find out later that it was for a different purpose than we originally thought. God looks at things from an eternal perspective, seeing the whole picture if you will...

It goes on and on...and on. Don't ask me too many questions though, I'm just playing devil's advocate

 

[El_Machinae]

Sometimes we think we understand why God is doing something, only to find out later that it was for a different purpose than we originally thought.

Okay, but then we leap into one definition of an immoral action ...

Causing suffering, without the permission of the victim, is immoral. (ie, a drug addict can consent to containment to cure the addiction, but to force containment upon them violates their Free Will and is a relative value judgement).

Often we assume that permission cannot be granted because of imperfect information (I slap a kid's hand when he reaches for the stove ... I won't be able to explain "too hot to touch" for another year). However, an all-powerful entity can explain the necessity of the suffering to anyone

... but He doesn't.

 

[Perfection]

I posit that an experiment on God requires the death of the observer. Because we cannot see to find any stimuli on Earth.

Well, the whole idea is scientifically untenable because god really has no evidence.

You want to turn God into a lab rat? You're going to hell, I'll see you there.

You wouldn't need to turn god into a lab rat. I believe ethical experimentation is alllowed on sentient subjects. After all, isn't that what psychology researchers do every day?

 

[shadow2k]

Okay, but then we leap into one definition of an immoral action ...

Causing suffering, without the permission of the victim, is immoral. (ie, a drug addict can consent to containment to cure the addiction, but to force containment upon them violates their Free Will and is a relative value judgement).

Often we assume that permission cannot be granted because of imperfect information (I slap a kid's hand when he reaches for the stove ... I won't be able to explain "too hot to touch" for another year). However, an all-powerful entity can explain the necessity of the suffering to anyone

... but He doesn't.

God judges what is moral or immoral though...not to mention that whole infallible thing again.

God doesn't need to explain anything to you. You must have faith that he has good reasons for what he does. Etc, etc...