Do you like China?

Er... because they're not peacenik Buddhists like the Tibetans and actually went through a terrorist phase in the 1990s? :p
I just wish it was more successful.

Yeah them both losing their independence is sad, but it's partially their own fault - Xinjiang/Uyghuristan never completely broke free even in China's weakest days, while Tibet broke free but didn't take steps to develop a military or form alliances that would protect it.
Its their fault because they weren't strong enough to do anything about it? Good to know Nanking was Justified then, after all, its the Chinese fault for not defending the city better.
What's done is done. We can't turn back the clock.
China didn't really take that opinion about Macao and Hong Kong.

Besides, they're better off now than they would have been on their own. (All of China could do without the Cultural Revolution though.)
How? Their standard of living is abyssmally low, their human rights are abused, their facing the continuing threat of Genocide, their sacred institutions have been sacked, burned, and looted, their leaders have fled their country, how have they possibly benefited?
 
I just wish it was more successful.
You're going out on a limb here. :nono: We here on the other side of the pond do not wish success for Al-Qaeda, nor sympathize with terrorists.
Its their fault because they weren't strong enough to do anything about it? Good to know Nanking was Justified then, after all, its the Chinese fault for not defending the city better.
Nothing justifies a massacre of civilians on that scale, and after the city has surrendered. It's a goddamn atrocity and a war crime up there with Auswicht (sp?). Now as for the matter of being invaded by Japan or the colonial powers a century prior then yes I agree with you. It is completely the Chinese's fault they allowed themselves to deteriorate and become weak. The lesson learned from the past 2 centuries is thus these: No one will help you but yourself! Never be complacent! You must always be stronger and more advanced than the neighbors (or at the very least equal) if you want to survive! (But sometimes even this is not enough if you're sitting on a motherlode of oil but do not have the body mass to protect yourself. In this situation it now pays to be a bootlicker to the biggest 'cop' around...)
China didn't really take that opinion about Macao and Hong Kong.
To tell you the truth the British weren't that happy about letting Hongkong go. :p Technically they don't really have to because the famous 99-year old lease covered the New Territories, not Hongkong island and Kowloon which were ceded in perpetua via an 'unfair treaty'. But they also knew that they could not possibly defend the place should the PLA really march across. As for Macao, the Portuguese were in even worse shape...

此一时彼一时。At the time the Western powers forced these concessions on a weak Qing empire that, in your words "wasn't strong enough to do anything about it". Now the erstwhile sick man has recovered while they themselves had weakened and cannot defend these outposts anymore. They are the ones now who "aren't strong enough to do anything about it". And so China took these back diplomatically but with the implicit threat of force. Simple as that.

You wanna free Tibet? Free Uyghuristan? Too late. Shoulda helped them more when they needed it. Instead of crying now over spilled milk.
How? Their standard of living is abyssmally low, their human rights are abused, their facing the continuing threat of Genocide, their sacred institutions have been sacked, burned, and looted, their leaders have fled their country, how have they possibly benefited?
I won't contest the low standard of living and the human rights bit, but the same applies for half of the rest of China! It's not particularly directed at them. Genocide is questionable at most, while the religious bashing took place during the madness of the Cultural Revolution. These days minority culture is a tourist draw and a cash cow, and it is actually the government that is promoting the indigenous culture while the young people are leaving for the big cities instead on their own.

Even the old Tibetan habit of mixing religion and politics had become accepted and modified. These days the mayor and the lama of a Tibetan town are usually the same person. :crazyeye:
 
You're going out on a limb here. :nono: We here on the other side of the pond do not wish success for Al-Qaeda, nor sympathize with terrorists.

I think its different. Al-Qaeda is not fighting for independence, they are figting because they feel that western world opress Islamist states. Main question is if majority of these areas wants independence. If so, I think its justified. China in history was many times divided so arguments about right to complete peoples china is little funny. And communists came to power also thanks actions which should be recognized as terrorist, regular Chinese goverment is on Taiwan.
 
Aye. Technically the Chinese civil war has never ended. Both sides still claim to be the legitimate government over all China. However the PRC does control the bigger part and so for convenience we refer to this entity as "China" and the ROC as "Taiwan".

A status quo that most people on both sides of the strait plus all of us Chinese from overseas communities would like to see maintained for the time being, to allow for eventual reunification when the mainland has evolved to a better, friendlier place.

Said entity will, of course, be neither the PRC nor the ROC but a different future state. Perhaps a federation. One that would give even greater autonomy to the peripherals (Inner Mongolia, Xinjiang, Tibet) that what they have today. I envision the CCP becoming a Socialist Party and having to co-exist with multiple other parties, but still enjoying a significant lead in government. (Kinda like Singapore's PAP but with a different ideology)

Unfortunately political change happens in China veeeeery slooooowly and so all of us would most likely not see this happening in our lifetime.

As for the separatist movements there are always disgruntled elements in non-Han areas, but the majority have now tired of the empty promises from exiled leaders and would prefer to face the real life issues at hand (like food, employment, agriculture, the economy etc.) and cooperate with the government. They're not really ecstatically in love with Beijing, but they see no reason to clamor for independence either.
 
Because, comparing to Mao and other communist leaders, independent movement leaders don't prove their competence more. Like I'm now, disenchanted of their hollow promises, they're tired, as well.

REDY, our country doesn't evolve as much as Czechoslovakia, or Czech Rep. or Slovakia. Please forgive me for my lack of support of those who are oppressed.
 
Its true that for example independent tibet is utopy now, because Chinese governemnt is moving Chinese loyal population to this areas and its only question of time when will be there more loyal Chinese than native. However the actions againist Tibetian flags wolrwide or verbal assaults againist countries which invited Tibetian leader is show that some kind of autonomy is still not near future.
 
Because, comparing to Mao and other communist leaders, independent movement leaders don't prove their competence more. Like I'm now, disenchanted of their hollow promises, they're tired, as well.

REDY, our country doesn't evolve as much as Czechoslovakia, or Czech Rep. or Slovakia. Please forgive me for my lack of support of those who are oppressed.

I dont know much about situation, but sometimes is splitting better. Czechs and Slovaks have now best relationships in their history.
 
It's not the government actively moving people, but people moving on their own. Tibet is relatively empty while the east is overflowing with people. Settlers branch off from big crowded cities and move to emptier places. That's how people have behaved throughout history. Only after the Industrial Revolution (and post Deng reforms in the case of China) has the process been reversed because of factories' demand for huge numbers of workers.

If anything previous strict government control (户口 system etc.) restricted internal movement of people in China, and the natural order of things is just beginning to be restored. Oh and of course the recently completed railway facilitated movement in and out of Tibet. But there is no sinister directive from the Central Committee to "go and replace the locals with more obedient people". They don't have such commanding authority over the people today. Hell I doubt if they can even find that kind of loyal people among the Han. :lol: The days of people willing to jump off a cliff in the name of the revolution are long over.
 
I dont know much about situation, but sometimes is splitting better. Czechs and Slovaks have now best relationships in their history.
Indeed. What you had was like an amicable divorce. :goodjob: while not the best solution a shining beacon nonetheless to others with more turbulent partitions.
 
But there is no sinister directive from the Central Committee to "go and replace the locals with more obedient people".

denied!
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Xinjiang_Production_and_Construction_Corps

The Xinjiang Production and Construction Corps (Simplified Chinese: 新疆生产建设兵团; Traditional Chinese: 新疆生產建設兵團; pinyin: Xīnjiāng Shēngchǎn Jiànshè Bīngtuán), also known as XPCC or Bingtuan for short, is a unique economic and semi-military governmental organization existing in Xinjiang Uyghur Autonomous Region in the People's Republic of China.

The stated goals of the XPCC are to develop frontier regions, promote economic development, ensure social stability and ethnic harmony, and counter the East Turkistan independence movement. In its 50-year history, the XPCC has built farms, towns, and cities, and settled millions of migrants, mainly Han Chinese, into Xinjiang. As such, the XPCC is lauded in China as a cornerstone of stability and prosperity in an otherwise troubled region, and characterized as a vehicle of colonization and sinicization among supporters of East Turkistan independence.

If a government organization trying to insure stability by bringing in Han immigrants isn't "go and replace the locals with more obedient people", then what is? :p
 
Okay, so I was wrong. But this is more of a construction brigade, not the army. They just build stuff. And of course any immigrants taking advantage of whatever they build will most likely be Han Chinese, seeing as they make up the bulk of the population.

And Han Chinese =/= loyal and obedient subject. The locals would laugh their heads off to hear that they've been automatically assumed as such by foreigners. Sure they're not traitors, but unless there's something to gain good luck on convincing them to move anywhere.
 
It was something that needs be done. Most Chinese would not say that it is a bad thing, abit harsh, but not something that important. people also have little resepct for the student protesters.

Why did it need to be done? Why not let the students have their say?

THERE is the difference between authoritarianism and democracy. In a democratic society, you can stand on the street corner and preach authoritarianism, and nothing will happen to you.

Zhou Enlai was the premier of China, but Mao was the party leader and had the power. There were many people who tried to lessen Mao's hold and suffered for it during the cultural revolution.

Some people did, but Zhou was not one of them.

No tanks ran over students, it is a western propaganda. People were arrested, some students obtained weapons and a firefight started, people got killed.

Unfortunately, no one in the West knows if anyone was run over by tanks or not. What matters is that people were killed for expressing support for democracy. Do you approve of that?

Please provide evidence of the students having weapons. I have read quite a bit about Tiananmen, and have never heard such a thing. I think it is you and not I who have been influenced by propaganda.

I don't hate students, but I could care less about their lives. Since we're not built on a humanitarian base of values, I couldn't really say that the sacrifice of students for democracy is worth anything, and I'm so sure that their blood ran in vain.

Blood only leads to more blood, it can't wake our people.

Stop talking about "our people" and wake up to the 21st century. And thanks for the honesty about your "values."
 
You're going out on a limb here. :nono: We here on the other side of the pond do not wish success for Al-Qaeda, nor sympathize with terrorists.
You sympathize with your own government, ergo you sympathize with terrorists. Its nothing unusual for me, I sympathize with von Staufenburg, I sympathize with the Forest brothers, I sympathize with the IRA, "terrorist" is a word thrown about to justify your actions.
Nothing justifies a massacre of civilians on that scale, and after the city has surrendered. It's a goddamn atrocity and a war crime up there with Auswicht (sp?).
But by your own logic it was the Chinese citizens own fault for not defending the city. If you claim its different because its after the city fell, then ruling Tibet and Xinjiang isn't justified because its after the countries were invaded.
You wanna free Tibet? Free Uyghuristan? Too late. Shoulda helped them more when they needed it. Instead of crying now over spilled milk.
As your government does every day over Taiwan. As it still does over Northern Burma, as it tried for a while with Primorsky Krai. Nothing about it is "too late", my ancestral country lost its independence for over 300 years and got it back. But you ignored the direct contradiction over your stance on Tibet and Hong Kong. Theres still a contradiction in your stance towards Taiwan, if its too late for Xinjiang, its too late for Taiwan, its now a de facto American Protectorate, if you didn't like it, you should have done something about it 60 years ago.

I won't contest the low standard of living and the human rights bit, but the same applies for half of the rest of China! It's not particularly directed at them.
Interesting, seeing as democracy house has to grade hongkong, China proper, and Tibet and Xinjiang on seperate reports because of the vast difference between them.
Genocide is questionable at most
Questionable because you don't have/want access to the information. Before the PRC took over Xinjiang was over 90% Uyghur, now its only 50%.
These days minority culture is a tourist draw and a cash cow
Funny, considering your government doesn't let most tourists there.
Even the old Tibetan habit of mixing religion and politics had become accepted and modified. These days the mayor and the lama of a Tibetan town are usually the same person. :crazyeye:
Same way as the "catholic" priests are the same ones the government wants. :crazyeye:
 
China is pretty cool actually. Awesome food. Communism isn't the best government, but it isn't bad and at least China doesn't have the same type of Communism the Soviet Union had. The Chinese people i know are nice.
 
OK. Let's clear the table and wait for my long post:

1. Dann is not a Chinese citizen, he's only a Philippino working in China.
I'm a Chinese citizen, but highly despise this country, see my previous post and my self-introduction on cfcot wiki.

2. I don't support the democracy and independent movements in China. That's NOT because I sympathize with the government, or I'm a stupid supporter of Chinese nationalism. It's because they're going nowhere. With people hating each other, political modernization non-exist, any form of democracy would be doomed to be replaced with a Maoist, or fascist, or a combination of left and right totalitarianism. In my morality, I sympathize with people who bust the bubble of "China myth".
See Dr. Sun Yat-Sen's struggle for the Republic of China and how it ended. Our country just doesn't deserve a Gandhi, or a Nelson Mandela.
Side Note: I think it would be slightly better if the reformists (with students as the front) won in the Tiananmen Square incident. However, it may never turned out that fine as in DDR, Poland, Czechoslovakia, Hungary and Romania. We are far away from Europe or US.

3. My view of current China politics is one word, "Doom". There will never be another spring of political freedom in the coming decades. Here I've already saw enough political reactionary: the government propaganda, the controlled media, the awfully-screwed text books and education system, the unbelievable revival of orthodox traditional values (Cultural Revolution is the other extreme), disgusting ultra-nationalism and fascism, blatant racism and discrimination against rural area, popular approval of cruel treatment of those who are convicted.

4. Yes, I think if China unified (which may never be), the capital should be Taipei.

5. Also, when we have a better government, we should let Xinjiang, Tibet go independent, and Inner Mongolia united with Mongolia. Just like what happened in Czechoslovakia, but not what happened in Yugoslavia.
 
But by your own logic it was the Chinese citizens own fault for not defending the city. If you claim its different because its after the city fell, then ruling Tibet and Xinjiang isn't justified because its after the countries were invaded.
No there's a difference. In my book if you can't defend yourself and you get conquered then yes it's your own fault. But if the conquering army then proceeds to rape, pillage and slay the newly conquered people then this conquering army is behaving like a bunch of barbarians.

As your government does every day over Taiwan. As it still does over Northern Burma, as it tried for a while with Primorsky Krai. Nothing about it is "too late", my ancestral country lost its independence for over 300 years and got it back. But you ignored the direct contradiction over your stance on Tibet and Hong Kong. Theres still a contradiction in your stance towards Taiwan, if its too late for Xinjiang, its too late for Taiwan, its now a de facto American Protectorate, if you didn't like it, you should have done something about it 60 years ago.
But there's the difference again. it's not too late yet in the case of Taiwan. A thousand things are silently being done everyday to facilitate eventual reunification, just as a thousand things are also being done by pro-independence factions on the island and their lobbyists in the US. It's an ongoing game whose results are still up for grabs.

But you are right in that History is cyclic. I am sure not only Tibet and Xinjiang, but every region with a hint of disgruntlement with Beijing will once again break free should China weaken or collapse into chaos. Heck my native Fujian could become an independent nation again like it last was after the fall of the Tang. The question is, will China allow that to happen? Especially now that we have finally found what we really want and are enjoying success?
Funny, considering your government doesn't let most tourists there.
:nope: Both these areas have a thriving tourism agency:
http://www.eedir.net/Regional/Asia/China/Xinjiang/Travel_and_Tourism/
http://tibet-travel.spaces.live.com/

Xinjiang travel agencies/tourism companies yellow pages:
http://www.tourism-brand.cn/117101/31_3.html
Sorry it's in Chinese but you get the point. (Lookit the number of pages!)

Sure there's some hassle but almost anyone can go anywhere in Tibet:
http://blog.cnool.net/hahablue9527/archive/2006/05/10/18210.aspx
Interesting that diplomats, journalists, and government officials get more flak.
snicker.gif
In most other countries these people get treated as gods.

Same way as the "catholic" priests are the same ones the government wants. :crazyeye:
But of course. :smug: How else to keep them in line? How else to avoid them feeding heretical thoughts to their flock? :D
 
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