Do you support the troops?

Do you support the troops?


  • Total voters
    74
Do I support people who kill for a living or that fanatically follow any order and justify everything in the name of something that doesn't even really exist? No, I don't.

Thank you for clarifying your take on this. As previously noted, I've sworn in some dozens or hundreds of recruit applicants, and tried in most cases to get a sense of why they were signing up. Assuming they weren't lying to me, it was a varied mixture of steady paycheck, my home life sucks, training/education, serve my country, the judge told me it was this or jailtime, go slaughter foreigners, etc. (Okay, no one ever actually told me that last one, and the second-to-last one we actively pursued and tried to negate). Via neat rhetoric, you've neatly put every servicemember into either the "mercenary" or "fanatic" column, but in the same way that everyone that has sex is either a "prostitute" or a "nymphomaniac".
 
Since the fall of the Soviet Union, there really is no legitimate excuses any more to have such a large and completely dominant military which is so frequently used for completely absurd reasons. Those who directly support it by volunteering to be a part of these activities are mostly the victims of a massive propaganda campaign perpetuated primarily by authoritarian conservatives. They don't deserve our support but I guess they do deserve our sympathy, since they actually think they are patriots instead of the pawns of the rich and powerful.

That is the problem with countries with overly large militaries. They typically try to find excuses to use them to rationalize their huge cost. Take Iraq after the Iran-Iraq War, for example.

I mostly agree with your position on the size of the U.S. military. Ultimately, we only "need" enough to deter or repel an actual attack on our territory or citizens, and to take part in military actions which are sanctioned by the international community to counter aggression or massive violations of human rights. But it's not like we can just flip a switch and shrink our military by 60% or whatever. For one thing, there is no effective international framework for consistently maintaining even a semblance of world peace. For another, imagine the sheer economic impact of a massive contraction of the US defense sector, one of the few forms of government stimulus that self-styled conservatives still apparently have no problem with. I don't see a big trimming of the defense budget anytime soon.

Be that as it may, I think your characterization of the majority of military volunteers as being victims of authoritarian conservative propaganda is grossly oversimplified. I know at least one individual who joined the Navy in the last few years at least partly for financial reasons - with few other prospects it was a job with guaranteed income and benefits, hard enough to come by these days. No doubt some enlist out of machismo. I suspect a large number of individuals, however, actually enlist out of a sincere desire to protect their country and the greater values it embodies, and the fact that the neocons have tried to exploit those desires doesn't mean they weren't sincere in all cases.

In any case, regardless of their motivation and to whatever extent they might be misused, the fact that they are putting on a uniform every day and giving up some of their own personal freedom gives the rest of us the luxury of having this discussion. For that, they deserve our gratitude and support.
 
Soldiers dont get to decide whats moral or immoral, they have to adhere to whats legal. If they envision some moral quandry, i.e. con. objector, or something like that, then they are better off not joining the service in the first place.
Yes, exactly. I'm glad we're in agreeance. From this I hope you can see why people have no business respecting you guys.

Moderator Action: Troll bait.
Please read the forum rules: http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=422889
 
Another one makes the ignore list... Glad this thread was started. Saving me a lot of time in future threads.

I am a pretty open minded guy, I may not agree, but I support that we all have our own ideas... but some of your are just super insulting, and it isn't necessary.
Moderator Action: Flaming.
Please read the forum rules: http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=422889
 
Yes, exactly. I'm glad we're in agreeance. From this I hope you can see why people have no business respecting you guys.

:lol:

damn, I should have stayed in the military so I didn't have to worry about what was moral
 
Another one makes the ignore list... Glad this thread was started. Saving me a lot of time in future threads.

I am a pretty open minded guy, I may not agree, but I support that we all have our own ideas... but some of your are just super insulting, and it isn't necessary.

Yeah, I'd have more to say about this, but...
 
If I said people have no business respecting terrorists would I be "super insulting"?

Just because you risk your life doesn't mean I should respect you. If you make yourself a tool of the elite and shut off your moral compass I'm not going to respect that. Sorry.

Now, do something like Bradley Manning did and I'll happily consider you a hero.
 
I disagree with many of the opinions you have expressed in this forum. But on this particular issue, I am in 100% agreement.

Since the fall of the Soviet Union, there really is no legitimate excuses any more to have such a large and completely dominant military which is so frequently used for completely absurd reasons. Those who directly support it by volunteering to be a part of these activities are mostly the victims of a massive propaganda campaign perpetuated primarily by authoritarian conservatives. They don't deserve our support but I guess they do deserve our sympathy, since they actually think they are patriots instead of the pawns of the rich and powerful.

That is the problem with countries with overly large militaries. They typically try to find excuses to use them to rationalize their huge cost. Take Iraq after the Iran-Iraq War, for example.

I would not be so quick to dismiss bellicosity from the left.
 
I support them with my taxes, isn't that enough?
 
Yes, exactly. I'm glad we're in agreeance. From this I hope you can see why people have no business respecting you guys.

Uhmmm.

Nope.

All I can say is I am quite happy the vast, vast, VAST majority dont think like you do.

Now, do something like Bradley Manning did and I'll happily consider you a hero.

What Bradley Manning did wasnt moral. Releasing information that puts your fellow soldiers into more jeopardy certainly isnt moral by any defnition of the word.

But thanks for saying that...it really highlights how truely bad your 'morality' vs 'legality' argument for soldiers is. Its like the hero worship of that one cop killer in prison, Mumia Abu-Jamal, and greatly misguided.
 
Uhmmm.

Nope.

All I can say is I am quite happy the vast, vast, VAST majority dont think like you do.
And I'm glad that there are people who hold views similar to mine, whether or not it is a popular view.
 
All I can say is I am quite happy the vast, vast, VAST majority dont think like you do.
I'm happy to say I'm in closer agreement with civver than I am with you.

What Bradley Manning did wasnt moral. Releasing information that puts your fellow soldiers into more jeopardy certainly isnt moral by any defnition of the word.

It's not like keeping the secret put anyone else at risk, anyway... :rolleyes:
 
What Bradley Manning did wasnt moral. Releasing information that puts your fellow soldiers into more jeopardy certainly isnt moral by any defnition of the word.
A) I still haven't seen any instance where someone died because of what was released.

B) Their own willingness as well as their government are what put them in danger. Don't ever forget that.

C) It was not an intended consequence that soldiers would be put in danger, so you can't use that to judge the morality of his action, regardless of if its true or not. He's not killing them or ordering anyone to kill them, so he has no more complicity in their deaths than the American government does for putting them in dangerous situations in the first place.
 
If I said people have no business respecting terrorists would I be "super insulting"?

Just because you risk your life doesn't mean I should respect you. If you make yourself a tool of the elite and shut off your moral compass I'm not going to respect that. Sorry.

Now, do something like Bradley Manning did and I'll happily consider you a hero.
I fully agree. Bradley Manning did a great thing. He helped to expose many horrible things that the US has done, including murder of civilians. May all the innocent victims of American imperialism rest in peace.
 
A) I still haven't seen any instance where someone died because of what was released.

And we both know thats not the standard of proof required to have put others in additional risk. There is no doubt that the release of the video inflamed tensions in the area. Although not directly attributed to that stuff, its entirely possible and even probable that those videos may have caused attacks on US servicemen in the area, fatal or not.

B) Their own willingness as well as their government are what put them in danger. Don't ever forget that.

And keeping classified information out of the hands of the enemy helps mitigate that danger.

C) It was not an intended consequence that soldiers would be put in danger, so you can't use that to judge the morality of his action, regardless of if its true or not.

Ignorance of the law is no excuse, and of course you can use that to judge his actions. Especially since as a soldier he knew better....he has no excuse in that regard.

He's not killing them or ordering anyone to kill them, so he has no more complicity in their deaths than the American government does for putting them in dangerous situations in the first place.

Ben Franklin never personally killed anyone either. :rolleyes:

I fully agree. Bradley Manning did a great thing. He helped to expose many horrible things that the US has done, including murder of civilians. May all the innocent victims of American imperialism rest in peace.

This is sheer propaganda. There was no 'murder' exposed, nor any instance of a single warcrime exposed. To even allege this is just ridiculous.
 
yes, we must keep evidence of our crimes - oops, I mean classified material - secret
 
Back
Top Bottom