DoC 1.18 Civilizations

  • Elective hasn't ever been popular in 1.18x but I think now the case can definitely be made for a daring buff.
The way I see it, there are a few problems with Elective. For one, if you have many unimproved tiles, it's not obvious that Elective is your best Government civic to adopt. You also have:
  • Monarchy, which allows you to train workers faster to improve the unimproved land, as well as reducing distance maintenance.
  • Despotism, to whip out basic things for your new cities.
  • And Republic, giving you some free specialists and specialist slots.
Elective also gives a bonus :commerce: from working camps and pastures, high :food: tiles, thus making you hit your :) capacity sooner rather than later, so Elective kinda works against itself there.

For the historical victories that require Elective, only the Mande, Rus and Congo stand out as civilizations that more or less demand it, with maybe Russia and Arabia as some other contenders for who it would go nicely with. For general strategies that mesh with Elective, the only one that I can immediately see is running Elective can bring in more :commerce:, which can help you purchase new units with Citizenship... But again, if you're already in the "rushing units" mindset, you're probably better off with Despotism, not Elective.

I'm having some success running Elective in the opening turns as France to help give my early economy a bit of a boost... But I get to the point where, within 20 turns or so, I'm ready to move on from Elective, as my Manorialism workers have improved enough tiles, and my cities are at their :) capacity. And I imagine this would be the case in Holy Rome and Poland as well.

What if elective also gave a :commerce: on mines, thus encouraging working low :food: tiles in order to keep your population down. But I don't think that would be enough to make Elective more viable. I think we need to think outside the box for Elective, and come up with something completely new to accompany it, but I'm drawing blanks at the moment.

Less negative stability from religious persecution and +2 :espionage: in all cities.
Also, buffing Religious Persecutors in someway, either generally or through civics, I think is warranted. I think the only time I have ever used them in all my time in DoC was for the Spanish victory... It's hard to justify spending :hammers: to push a city into revolt.
 
What if elective also gave a :commerce: on mines, thus encouraging working low :food: tiles in order to keep your population down. But I don't think that would be enough to make Elective more viable. I think we need to think outside the box for Elective, and come up with something completely new to accompany it, but I'm drawing blanks at the moment.
Seeing those two things in the same paragraph brings to mind the unit food production effect which is currently unused.
 
I'm a bit unclear on which civs are supposed to "historically" run Elective. The Pedia entry lists the Holy Roman, Polish, Norse, Mande, Aztec and Mongol civs as possible example. Those are very different gameplay experiences. Currently Elective is a starting civic you switch out once your land is sufficiently improved, I'm not sure how to make it stick.

For the HRE and the Mongols, maybe the shrine bonus from Fanaticism could apply there, but it's irrelevant to the others.

Seeing those two things in the same paragraph brings to mind the unit food production effect which is currently unused.
Or this. It's an all around useful bonus that would be especially useful for the Mongols who have to keep their foreign population low (and whipping has a worse effect on stability now, I believe).
 
Seeing those two things in the same paragraph brings to mind the unit food production effect which is currently unused.
I pitched this idea a couple months back, but you were concerned with how the AI works with this particular effect, so I was assuming it was off the table. But of course, if you don't have concerns there, I would love to see this effect returned to the civics, it's one of my favorite civic effects. :) My only comment then would be that I would also like to see Monarchy's "+50% :food: added to :hammers:" moved to another civic category, so that the player has the ability the stack those two abilities together.
 
I feel like the tendency lately has been to decouple cumulative effects by putting them in the same category: the cottage effects from Individualism and Totalitarianism, the specialist effects from Central Planning and Public Welfare...
 
Yeah I've been thinking about this a little more. I am both concerned about the AI but also the human player because this effect forces you not to build units if you want to build units. Perhaps it would be useful to only apply the effect if the human selects "avoid city growth" and to have the AI select this once the city reaches the happy cap.
 
I feel like the tendency lately has been to decouple cumulative effects by putting them in the same category: the cottage effects from Individualism and Totalitarianism, the specialist effects from Central Planning and Public Welfare...
You can say that again. Some of us MinMax psychos are struggling to cope with this Attack on the Stack. Ugh I cry to recall some of the old crazy synergies like running Tribs/Reg Trade/Centralism with lots of big vassals (or Colonialism with lots of colonies) and an already S-Tier capital further pumped up with GP buildings and Natl Wonders. Wish I had some screens to show some of the idiotic Commerce yields that could be achieved.

Did this state of affairs contribute to Better Gameplay? Even I'd have to say Probably Not (but I still sigh).
 
this effect forces you not to build units if you want to build units
Can you elaborate on this? Do you just mean that it's usually better for a city to wait to grow a couple population after it's founded before building units even if you only want the city so it can build units?
 
Perhaps it would be useful to only apply the effect if the human selects "avoid city growth" and to have the AI select this once the city reaches the happy cap.
That would be amazing. One of the reasons i've always prefered whipping/drafting over food-to-units method of dealing with excess population is that whipping is used only when you want it, and where you want it.

However, caution must be applied as whipping/drafting come with a severe drawbacks of happiness and population loss, while food-to-units without any drawback will be probably a bit too good, especially in Medieval Europe (and for maritime powers, but Japan spamming units and actually starting Imjin war is a welcome change).
 
Can you elaborate on this? Do you just mean that it's usually better for a city to wait to grow a couple population after it's founded before building units even if you only want the city so it can build units?
Sorry, I meant to say forces you not to build units when you want to grow the city.
 
Hi there,

My very first post here. Awesome mod btw.
Played with the Byzantines on Paragon in the 600 AD scenario a little bit.

5000 Gold
There is afaik only one way of getting 5000 gold in time on this difficulty - sending 3 Great Merchants to Jerusalem, where they net 1800 gold each. Neither China nor India nor any other place on the map bring in that much gold, so this is absolutely mandatory. (also, for the first few turns, it's only 1400 gold, don't know exactly why, but you can use the time to explore the Middle East with your first one before bringing him to Jerusalem). While this does nicely represent the extensive relations between the Empire and the Fatimids, I feel like having to get your Great Merchants through the Silk Road is a much more rewarding and interesting gameplay (compared to moving them for 2 turns from Constantinople/Alexandria), which nicely evokes the smuggling of silk worms under Justinian I or the embassies of the 7th, 8th and 11th centuries, and lets the player roleplay as a sort of byzantine Marco Polo. Maybe one idea would be to give byzantine GMs a boost for trade in China/India prior to the Medieval/Renaissance era, or a behind-the-scenes boost to trade missions to Chinese cities by European GMs overall?

Relations with Arabia
Given the need to do trade missions to Jerusalem, conquering Arabia is off the table anyway. However, it's entirely possible, with some luck and careful planning, to re-conquer Egypt in 2-3 turns, peace out with them and prevent any sort of Arab conquest in the Mediterranean if you move quickly, which feels incredibly rewarding if you pull it off. However, I feel like being able to just avoid the Byzantine-Arab Wars like that is counterproductive (only once in many playthroughs did they declare war on me, when a galley of mine was exposed), and at least a little bit of conflict should be had - maybe one or two small batches of "conquerors" spawned outside Constantinople soon after their expansion, similarly to how the Seljuks are handled, to represent the massively important Arab sieges of Constantinople, before the player can settle into peace with Arabia until he's strong enough to steamroll them?

Blitzing Egypt and the super-early game
Since your cities switch to the Arabs and your units get yeeted to your nearest remaining city if they’re too close, you must walk a tightrope to make this work.
Pre-requisites: The Arab army spawns in Baghdad instead of Memphis and their navy anywhere other than outside Alexandria. If they do, simply re-load. Also, for this whole strategy to work, you need to not lose any units while attacking them for them to agree to peace, so be careful.

Your two galleys need to be right north-east of Euryspides, in range of Alexandria, when war starts:
- The first galley loads up your Cataphract, then goes next to Athens. You start building a second Cataphract in Constantinople focusing on production, then hurry it with gold the next turn (and switch two pops to Merchants), and then (making sure not to upgrade it yet!) move it by road into the galley, which then sails into position.
- Your second galley sails directly towards Alexandria, where it loads up two units – the Spearman upgraded the turn before into Heavy Spearman, and a Swordsman produced in Alexandria for which you hurry production on the second turn, and then sails west, joining the other galley in time for your cities to switch.
- Your other two units in Egypt (a spearman and an archer) need to be moved directly south of Euryspides asap, with one of them potentially used to attack the town if the odds for one of the following battles need to be changed.

After your cities have switched and you declared war, your galley with the infantry (and only it!) moves next to Alexandria and beats the two Arab archers spawned there. If you wait even one turn they get a 25% fortification boost (and sometimes a third archer), so this has to be done immediately. Afterwards, your second galley with the cavalry moves directly into Alexandria, from where the cataphracts move and take Cairo on the same turn (feel free to rename it back into Memphis). Also, take Euryspides on the same turn, even if you have to sacrifice the archer.

During their turn, the Arabs sometime counterattack Cairo with an archer, sometimes hurry a third archer in Diosopolis Megale (which will delay your conquest of it by 1 turn) and sometimes do nothing.

Using the upgrades to partially heal your cataphracts if and when necessary (never pick retreat, as they’re already immune to first strikes), immediately take Diosopolis Megale before the main Arab army has a chance to get to Egypt and peace out with them before they have a chance to wreck your fishing boats in the Aegean. Afterwards heal them up, invade Nubia, take out three of their four unique archers, wait 1 turn and then vassalize them for that sweet +1 happiness and periodic luxury goods which you can squeeze out of them.

Meanwhile, your swordsman and heavy spearman get the city attack upgrade, heal up, and then conquer the city in Libya (which you should raze, as it’s a terrible spot for a city and only drags down your economy) and Carthage (which you can keep) before the Arabs do, while your other galley immediately ferries over units from Greece with which to garrison Egypt and then brings your Cataphracts back north.

Regarding the other cities that flip to the Arabs, you can use them to hurry a lot of things – fishing boats, a scout with which to reach the Asian civs via the Silk Road, skirmishers, even a swordsman in Damascus, but I have yet to figure out a way to retake Antioch in this timeframe, but you don’t need it anyway.


Odds and ends
  • Having to defend the Balkans is really cool, and presents a constant challenge to the player, preventing them from steamrolling too easily. Having to sometimes defend your lands can be really fun. My only gripe is that, at one point, “Bulgarian armies invading your lands” spawned on the other side of the Bosphorus.
  • You need to move pretty quickly toward Rome with catapults (and infantry to protect them) to start sieging down their defences before bringing the Cataphracts to finish them off. Make sure to leave a blocking force further north at the choke point, to prevent Milan from reinforcing the city.
  • The Norse invade and conquer Aghmat (which they promptly lose to Morocco spawning) and then do absolutely nothing else of interest. Once saw Viking raider barbarians spawned in coastal Algeria, which was cool, but underwhelming. Maybe some Norse conquerors, to simulate the Norman conquests which influenced the whole Mediterranean for centuries, or at least some barbarians?
  • With its two scientists from the Great Library, Alexandria is a major headache in your quest to generate Great Merchants. Hurry a hippodrome (to keep it happy, as the abundance of religions and lingering Arabian culture pisses them off) and then a market before switching to Monarchy and Monasticism.
  • The Europeans appear pretty passive towards each other.
  • Dealing with the Mongol bombard doomstack is super hard, a massive inconvenience, as nothing you can possible have does flanking damage to them.
 
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