[RD] Does free speech even exist as a concept?

[Senethro]

What sort of mind looks at the ethno-religious conflict of places like the Balkans and goes "Thats a good idea, I want that for us."

 

[El_Machinae]

I get saddled with the kkk and the nazis when I vote

Oh, I know which way they'll vote. That's something that cannot really be helped in a country with two political parties. Every minor faction of undesirables can be pegged into association. I don't do that. Or, I try not to. I though Trump was unacceptable early on, though (I'll admit) I think that Duke's endorsement preceded when Trump crossed my line from "ridiculous" to "unacceptable".

So, we know where that group of undesirables vote. That can't be helped. Their being welcomed at the rallies is a different story, I think. Democrats wouldn't chase away hippies from the various rallies, but they'd chase away NAMBLA. But the opposite didn't happen when the swastikas showed up.

I'm not painting the swastikas onto the Republicans or Conservatives. Only the Trump-supporting White Nationalists.

 

[Timsup2nothin]

This liar has everyone taking the bait really hard. At least don't swallow the hook, and that's for other people probably more than it is for you. When you keep hearing that there are murdering hordes(immigrants or homegrown) right around the corner, but their rallies are empty and their crime rates are normal, it's just somebody's agenda at work. Lots of muleholes have megaphones.

No worries. No one thinks this guy represents the "ordinary Republican." But you should recognize that this IS what has been welcomed into the party just to "keep the numbers up." And you also need to look closely at it and see if the party that needs the numbers that badly has the strength to fend off their efforts to take the party over...because frankly it looks like it may not.

 

[Farm Boy]

but they'd chase away NAMBLA. But the opposite didn't happen when the swastikas showed up.

Somebody's been stuck having to argue, "Let the mentally challenged march around in thier pajamamasks and pick up the highway, but go ahead and rename it to Rosa Parks Way and screw their organization name on the sign under it. That's more than acceptable" for way too long against the "Shout them down for slightly deviant messaging until they can't work in industry again" puritanical for too long. One of those groups has mainstream appeal and momentum. The situation has visible cost in quality. If my fine Democratic leaning countrymen are concerned about this phantom menace, I issue the same advice as normal. Become a responsible and legal bearer of force, stay active in politics locally, yadda yadda.

 

[Old Hippy]

Oh, I know which way they'll vote. That's something that cannot really be helped in a country with two political parties. Every minor faction of undesirables can be pegged into association. I don't do that. Or, I try not to. I though Trump was unacceptable early on, though (I'll admit) I think that Duke's endorsement preceded when Trump crossed my line from "ridiculous" to "unacceptable".

So, we know where that group of undesirables vote. That can't be helped. Their being welcomed at the rallies is a different story, I think. Democrats wouldn't chase away hippies from the various rallies, but they'd chase away NAMBLA. But the opposite didn't happen when the swastikas showed up.

I'm not painting the swastikas onto the Republicans or Conservatives. Only the Trump-supporting White Nationalists.

I've only ever met one fascist and he turned out to be a middle aged bus driver, I didn't punch him but i still ran a mile
people can take the moral high ground with the hammer and sickle flags that showed up for the democrats then lie back and think of the green fields of Cambodia
black clad ski masked thugs are no different from nazis... unless you are always right of course and you give them bamboo hats
whats needed is a centalist party and one without thugs

 

[Arakhor]

Moderator Action: I have taken a very blunt axe to all the dead wood in this thread. In future, please remember that this is still an RD thread and try not to so thoroughly satiate sub-viaductal goblinoids. Thank you.
Please read the forum rules: http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=422889

 

[El_Machinae]

people can take the moral high ground with the hammer and sickle flags that showed up for the democrats

That's a good point.

 

[Berzerker]

Okay, but he asked what from Christian history, not Christian philosophy, that would indicate they wouldn't resist what they see as a threat to their way of life. Quoting Bible verses doesn't really answer that question.

I was including Jesus and his followers as part of that history. I dont know when (many, most) Christians dropped all that turn the other cheek stuff (was it Constantine when Christians became Caesar?) but I figure they were much more Christ-like in their early history.

 

[Farm Boy]

Oh I don't know. Simon Peter is old, John 18:10-11.

Spoiler Other stuff is new :

Well, non-violent people are non-violent. I guess that shouldn't be a surprise. It's one of the reasons they hire violent men to walk around wearing brass. These are people who died in a Methodist church. It seems they died practicing some of the best of what the faith preaches.

But you're on a roll with your current take, I think?

 

[Berzerker]

So you think the early Christians were just as violent as later Christians based on that incident?

I figure they were much more Christ-like in their early history.

Thats my current take

 

[Farm Boy]

There was the whole Alexandria thing. Plus another wonder or two. I think a couple points at Nicea were settled with fists and cheeks. Was that one Saint Nic?

I mean yeah, better than blood eagles, but it's a journey not a final.

 

[Lexicus]

That's a good point.

Except of course that anyone with half a clue - hell, anyone with a tenth of a clue - knows that the hammer and sickle flags are all busy explaining why the Democrats might be even worse than the Republicans, not "showing up" for them.

 

[Berzerker]

There was the whole Alexandria thing. Plus another wonder or two. I think a couple points at Nicea were settled with fists and cheeks. Was that one Saint Nic?

I mean yeah, better than blood eagles, but it's a journey not a final.

Nicea was under Constantine when Christian violence escalated with the prospect of power, earlier Christians largely argued over doctrine without slaughtering each other. The journey has taken Christianity further away from Jesus.

 

[Arakhor]

Mainly because they were busy getting themselves slaughtered because they thought that becoming a martyr was the noblest cause in life.

 

[Timsup2nothin]

Mainly because they were busy getting themselves slaughtered because they thought that becoming a martyr was the noblest cause in life.

You are suggesting that it isn't?

 

[brennan]

One man's noble martyr is another man's fanatical suicide bomber.

 

[Arakhor]

You are suggesting that it isn't?

It's ultimately selfish and that's even if you only take yourself out when you go.

 

[Farm Boy]

Ah ok, so 2000 year past Christians, not 1700 year past Christians, but also not the man with the sword cutting away in service to the lamb himself, and not the ones being the lambs 3 years past. <shrugs> When you've got a small group of fanatics actively flirting with martyrdom by execution the membership is by necessity going to be different from people who can't be bothered to tithe or show up once a week for an hour to listen to a lesson. Those are probably significantly closer in behavior to those who overtly refuse to believe in anything past themselves such as and whoever they are.

 

[Berzerker]

Mainly because they were busy getting themselves slaughtered because they thought that becoming a martyr was the noblest cause in life.

Yeah, that doesn't reflect well on Jesus... Albeit he did try to keep them out of trouble with "render unto Caesar" etc... I read of stories about Christians effectively demanding Romans kill them, one officer got so frustrated with the practice he told them to go throw themselves off a cliff if they're so intent on dying.

You are suggesting that it isn't?

Thats a tough question, they certainly did have an effect on their audience. Many Roman elites were so impressed by their courage and faith they converted. The religion may not have gotten off the ground without the martyrs. Paul sure didn't inspire confidence when he left Thecla in a horrible situation after he pissed off the locals with his abstinence philosophy. But she did... She was put in the arena to be eaten by the lions and the lionesses defended her from the males... so the story goes.

Ah ok, so 2000 year past Christians, not 1700 year past Christians, but also not the man with the sword cutting away in service to the lamb himself, and not the ones being the lambs 3 years past. <shrugs> When you've got a small group of fanatics actively flirting with martyrdom by execution the membership is by necessity going to be different from people who can't be bothered to tithe or show up once a week for an hour to listen to a lesson. Those are probably significantly closer in behavior to those who overtly refuse to believe in anything past themselves such as and whoever they are.

But he wasn't serving Jesus, He healed the man's ear and told his followers to stop with the violence consistent with his teachings of turning the other cheek. And I wouldn't necessarily draw the line at Constantine, most of Christianity remained true to the word for a while until the 'heretics' were driven off or killed. But dangling power in their faces proved too much temptation and Christianity and the state became one and the blood flowed from religious wars.

 

[Farm Boy]

Sure he was. He was just informed he did it wrong. The nature of anything is going to change when you take it from small and "pure" and broaden it to the less selfless, less dedicated. Doesn't mean that it's general traits don't still apply, but you aren't going to get the same sort of consistency. And we have several examples of even the best of the best OGs making mistakes. The silver, the sword, and the rooster. Christians all, imperfect all. You get more Christians? You get more imperfect people. Every one of them is going to be a sinner, so it says. The lessons are still the lessons, and those are probably better refined, on average, and kinder, on average, by longstanding continued effort.